Published On: Sat, May 5th, 2012

Looking beyond the Indus Script: Story of Vedic Harappans

A decade since Jha and Rajaram presented their findings, there have been significant developments that show that the script was one piece of a larger picture that connects Harappan archaeology to the Vedic literature, and also to the natural history of the post Ice Age. Navaratna Rajaram finds out more…

Indus seal with unicorn bull

Indus seal with unicorn bull

In the year 2000 the late Natwar Jha and this writer published a book called The Deciphered Indus Script: methodology, readings, interpretations that offered a solution to a vexing problem of ancient India— the identity and culture of the people who created the vast and advanced archaeological remains of the Harappan or the Indus Valley civilization. At that time it was held by some scholars, but by no means universally, that Harappan archaeology was the creation of a people who were the original inhabitants of India who were defeated and driven south by an invading race of people called the Aryas (or Aryans). For political reasons colonial officials and missionaries identified these supposed ‘original’ inhabitants of India with the ‘Dravidian’ people of South India.

This is the famous, now infamous Aryan invasion theory (AIT) invented by Western scholars of the colonial era. Since they controlled the writing of textbooks, this version of the Aryan invasion and the Aryan-Dravidian conflicts became the official version of history taught to children— a situation that continued after independence. While science— first archaeology and then genetics has discredited the theory, it has acquired powerful political and academic interests that have allowed this version to continue in textbooks and universities, in both India and the West.

A curious thing is that any argument or evidence against the AIT was not countered or refuted but simply dismissed and the people opposing it denounced as ignoramuses, chauvinists and worse. The distinguished American historian of science Abraham Seidenberg ridiculed them observing that “their ‘refutations’ were little more than haughty dismissals.”

Entrenched interests

This is a strange attitude for scholars to adopt. To fathom this bizarre behavior we need to recognize that the AIT or its latest incarnation called the AMT (for the Aryan Migration Theory, for there is no evidence for any invasion) has several faces that cater to the socio-political needs of several different groups. First and simplest, it is used to justify the political ideology of Dravidian parties of Tamil Nadu that hold that Tamil culture was ‘pure’ until it was defiled with Sanskrit by invading Aryans, especially by the Brahmins. This divisive myth was created by Robert Caldwell, Bishop of Tirunelveli as part of the missionary strategy of ‘divide and convert’. This was picked up by Dravidian party politicians like Karunanidhi to claim they were victims of Aryan, particularly Brahmin oppression. In this the politicians had and continue to have the strong support of Christian missionaries.

Then there are also entrenched Indologists in Western academia whose survival is tied to this model of history. As per the AIT (now AMT), Vedas and the Sanskrit language were not created by the Indians themselves but brought by an invading superior race of Aryans, now called Indo-Europeans (to avoid the taint of Nazi horrors.) Until recently, and even now to a significant extent, these invaders are portrayed as fair skinned people related to Europeans. While these academics may be prepared to give up the idea of racial superiority—or at least claim to—they are not prepared give up the idea of being the descendants of a superior people who brought the Vedic Civilization to India. There whole discipline is built on it; it is just not their identity but also their livelihood that is threatened by the collapse of AIT-AMT version of history.

In India, these Western interests don’t have a direct bearing except for the status of Indian scholars that goes with being associated with Western scholars. In addition, being in their good books by toeing their line can yield perks like fellowships, visiting positions and the like at Western institutions. Until recently this Indian elite prided on being seen as sharing a common ancestry with the British rulers, namely the Aryans or Indo-Europeans. This made them feel superior to fellow natives. (The British nurtured this superstitious vanity to gain Indian collaborators.)

Sarasvati satellite image

Sarasvati satellite image

Politics rules

In addition, the Indian history establishment after independence has been dominated by Marxists like Romila Thapar and her associates. Marx also said India has no history except the record of invaders. Further, the Marxists used the AIT to interpret the fictional Aryan-Dravidian conflicts as a class struggle. According to these, even the caste system represents a transformation of classes. On the other hand, the British attributed the caste system to racial differences, supposedly based on something called the ‘nasal index’. Its message— longer the nose, higher the caste!

Even from this cursory discussion it should be obvious that this brand of ‘scholars’ are complete ignoramuses when it comes to science. So they were and are in no position to understand let alone dispute the findings of ancient astronomy, metallurgy and other sciences that contradict their theories. As far back as 1893, Bal Gangadhar Tilak and Hermann Jacobi used astronomical references in the Vedic literature to show that the Rig Veda must have existed long before 3000 BC. About 20 years ago, this writer used metallurgical data to show that the Rig Veda could not be later than 3500 BC. But these scholars could not comprehend it so they ignored it.

Even more amazingly, many of these scholars, most prominently Thapar are completely ignorant of Sanskrit and cannot read the Vedic literature! They depend entirely on colonial era English translations. They project themselves, and are also acknowledged by the media as authorities on Vedic India. This is like a mathematical illiterate claiming to be an expert in modern physics. How could it be possible? The answer is political influence. These ‘secularist’ historians have cultivated political connections with the Congress party and its politicians going back to Jawaharlal Nehru whose prejudices they are careful to project in their works. (The Thapar family has close ties with the Nehru family, and Romila Thapar was a personal friend of Indira Gandhi.)

The Congress and its’ secular’  affiliates have long patronized Marxist historians like Romila Thapar, R.S. Sharma, Irfan Habib and others. The ruling Congress today for all practical purposes has no Indian nationalistic roots. It is now a conglomerate of Marxists and worshippers of the West; this includes Marxism, which is the most extreme of Eurocentric ideologies. (During the Freedom Movement, the Communists acted as ‘spies and stooges’ of the British for which they were generously paid.)

Hostility to anything Indian, especially Hindu is hardwired into them. A real but unstated goal of making Vedas and Sanskrit foreign imports is to be able to claim that like Islam and Christianity, Hinduism is also of non-Indian origin and therefore has no special place in Indian history and culture. In this campaign it is not surprising to see Christian missionaries to be strong supporters of this version of ‘history’. Some Christian ‘scholars’ have gone to the extent of claiming that Sanskrit came to India only after St Thomas brought Christianity to India!

Natwar Jha, foremost scholar of Vedic-Harappan civilization

Natwar Jha, foremost scholar of Vedic-Harappan civilization

Sarasvati unifies Vedic and Harappan

The situation in 2000 when the book The Deciphered Indus Script appeared can be summarized as follows. Cracks were appearing in the AIT version of history, mainly on the basis of the Sarasvati river evidence. The problem is that the Rig Veda extols the Sarasvati as the greatest river, not once or twice but many times. Scientific studies based on satellite photography and archaeology showed that the Sarasvati had dried up completely by 2000 BC. So the Aryan invaders arriving in India in 1500 BC could not have described and worshipped the Sarasvati as the greatest river when it had dried up 500 years earlier.

To counter this, Thapar’s follower Rajesh Kocchar wrote that the Sarasvati described in the Rig Veda was a river in Afghanistan which the Aryans had encountered on their way to India. But there are no great rivers in Afghanistan. Also the Rig Veda describes the Sarasvati as flowing from “the mountain to the sea,” which is impossible in landlocked Afghanistan. (For more details on the Sarasvati and related matters, see http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html.)

All this went to demolishing the AIT version of history— showing there was no invasion of Aryans or anyone else in the late ancient age. But it left open the identity of the Harappan civilization. Archaeologists, however, began to notice that a large number of so-called Indus sites (or Harappan sites) lay not along the Indus but along the now dry Sarasvati. This showed that the same river—the Sarasvati—which is called the greatest in the Rig Veda was also the lifeblood of the Harappan civilization. The Harappan civilization collapsed when the Sarasvati dried up. (See map of the Sarasvati River.)

This (and other) evidence showed that the Vedic and the Harappan civilizations were intimately related, the question really was the temporal relationship between the two. Then K.D. Sethna of Pondicherry and this writer working independently and following completely different approaches showed that the Harappan civilization, which may be dated to the 3000 – 2000 BC (to a first approximation) belonged to what is known as the Sutra period of the Vedic literature.

The Vedic literature can conveniently be divided into Samhitas (Vedic hymns like the Rig Veda), Brahmanas (prose commentaries) and Sutras (codified texts like the Patanjali Yoga Sutra). (This is an oversimplification but will do here.) Since any codification can come only towards the end, it showed that the Rig Veda was much older than the Sutra literature period, which was shown to be contemporary with the Harappan archaeology.

Perhaps more importantly, it showed that the language of the Harappans could not be too far removed from the archaic (Vedic) Sanskrit of the Sutra literature. This created the background necessary to decipher the writings found on the famous Indus seals. The same idea had come to the great Vedic scholar and polymath Natwar Jha with whom this writer was soon to collaborate.

Indus seals and writing

Paleo map of Sarasvati

Paleo map of Sarasvati

The Harappans were a literate people. They have left behind samples of writing, mostly short messages on terra cotta seals and other artifacts. These are the famous Indus (or Harappan) seals. Ever since they were first discovered, reading the script and the identification of the language have been major goals of historians. With the benefit of hindsight, one can see that the Aryan invasion theory, which had by then had hardened into a dogma, was a major obstacle to understanding the Harappan language and hence reading the writing. The AIT held that the Harappan language could not be Sanskrit but an early form of Dravidian— like Tamil. But the oldest Tamil known is only about 2000 years old, while the Harappan writing is 4000 years old. So attempts to read them as Tamil were doomed to failure though some scholars like Asko Parpola who claimed to do so were generously rewarded by Dravidian politicians.

But the identification of the Harappans as belonging to the late Vedic (Sutra) period by Sethna and the author solved the first half of the problem: the language had to be archaic Sanskrit of the Sutra period. Natwar Jha had also made significant advance in reading the script assuming the language to be Vedic Sanskrit, but our work (with Sethna) justified his assumption and gave also the historical background. It was then that this writer and Jha decided to collaborate. After two years, we published the book The Deciphered Indus Script. (See the accompanying book review.)

It is obviously too technical to go into the details of the decipherment, but it can be said that it identifies the Harappans firmly as part of the Vedic civilization, coming towards the end of it. The Harappans represent the twilight of the Vedic Age. This means the Harappans are no longer the puzzle they were supposed to be, though this puzzle was largely the making of the scholars’ dogmatic attachment to the non-existent Aryan invasion and the artificial, politically motivated Aryan-Dravidian divide. In summary, Harappan archaeology represents the material remains of the culture and civilization described in the Vedic literature.

The Harappans therefore were Vedic Harappans; both were native to India as DNA studies show. Biologically as well as culturally they were the product of a long evolutionary process. What the Indus seals and their study, of which the decipherment is a part, tell us is that the civilization of India is a continuum from Vedic times to the present, and the Harappans were an integral part of it. There were outside influences of course, but they were secondary. The same is true of the Indus (Harappan) script. It is the oldest writing known from which later Indian scripts like Brahmi, Devanagari and others evolved.

‘Harappan horse’ hysteria

Where the Sarasvati River and other data discredited the AIT, what Deciphered Indus Script did was to utterly demolish the existing version of history and replace it with one that integrated the Vedic literature with Harappan archaeology. Considering the stakes that academic Indologists in India and the West had in the status quo, some criticism and even hostility was to be expected. But the authors were not prepared for the ferocity of the personal attacks and diversionary tactics involving issues that had nothing to do with the book or the decipherment.

 The lead in this was taken by Romila Thapar in India and Harvard linguist Michael Witzel in the U.S. Where Thapar objected to our identification of Harappans as Vedic people, without refuting our arguments but questioning our ‘Hindutva’ motives, Witzel and his partner—an academic nonentity called Steve Farmer—charged us with fabricating the image of a horse on one of the seals. This was shown to be false for we produced another seal from their own work containing a horse image. It was purely a diversionary tactic: our book was about the Harappan civilization and script and not Harappan zoology. (The oft repeated claim of ‘No horse at Harappa’ is totally false. Horse remains have been found at all levels at several Harappan sites.)

 The curious thing is that this ‘critique’ of our work appeared not in any scholarly journal but the pro-Communist magazine Frontline. Leaving aside the unsoundness of their argument, their tactic of making personal attack to divert attention from the substance of the topic bespoke a new low in academic conduct. It is a measure of insecurity felt by the likes of Michael Witzel, a feeling justified by recent developments at Harvard where his department has been closed down. (And at other universities also.)

Pre-Harappan seal refers to 'Ila' (Sarasvati)

Pre-Harappan seal refers to 'Ila' (Sarasvati)

It may be noted that similar tactics of raising irrelevant issues and personal attacks were used by the very same people—Witzel and his colleagues—to expel Dr Subramanian Swamy by having his economics courses cancelled. Where the ‘Harappan horse’ was the bogey in their campaign against us, Swamy’s supposedly anti-Muslim article served as the pretext in the campaign against him. So this writer was not surprised to see such ‘bodyline’ tactics employed against Swamy, having himself been their target some ten years previously.

To return to the Vedic –Harappan unification and its ramifications, Jha and this writer were working on a follow up volume to our book when the storm broke. We felt that it was best to hold back publication until the noise died down, as any new work would not get a reasonable hearing in the hysterically anti-intellectual climate that had been whipped up by our adversaries. Tragically, Jha died in 2006 aged only 58. At about the same time, following his campaign against California school curriculum and his misadventure in drumming up Pakistani support, Witzel had been exposed as more a political propagandist than scholar. He and his colleagues now have little credibility left. As a result of all this, this writer is working to complete the book that he and Jha had been working on.

With the benefit of hindsight it can be said that Jha’s breakthrough goes far beyond the language and script of the Harappan seals. He showed also deep connections between the Harappan civilization and the Vedic literature and even the Mahabharata. One of Jha’s major discoveries was that a passage in the Shanti Parva of the Mahabharata serves as a link between the symbolism of Harappan iconography and an important class of Vedic texts known as Nirukta. The full implications of this are still not clear, but will be discussed in the book currently in progress.

  • Mohan Mahapatra

    An outstanding and highly informative article. I request Dr. Rajaram to share more of such experiences from what seems to be an eventful and adventurous life. Everyone is not so fortunate.

  • Ravi Chandran

    Thank you for this post. It resolves many of my questions and looking forward to the publication of the book by Dr. Rajaram.

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  • Gajanan92

    Prof Rajesh Raos kecture on TED on Indus script.
    He has papers on this in prestgious science journals.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/rajesh_rao_computing_a_rosetta_stone_for_the_indus_script.html

    • N.S. Rajaram

      Thank you for the reference. I am familiar with Rajesh Rao’s and other similar work. It is necessary first to establish a historical context by identifying the people who created the seals and other artifacts. This should be unambiguous and not vague and speculative. Mathematical-statistical and/or computer-aided approaches have been tried for several decades but led nowhere. The domain (context) has to be established before we can apply a methodology. Our (Jha-Rajaram) context is late Vedic, and methodology yields hundreds of readings.

      As I note in my article, I am working on the next book on the subject. I find that the context is more important than the readings, hich does not tell us more than what we can find in the literature of the period.

      • Gajanan92

        Dr Rajaram,
        The m17 matriarchial chromosome going from South Asia to the West, and the findings of Stephen Oppeinheimer , http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ is also science. One feels once proven scientifically. it will be a huge supplement to your findings in the humanities inter alia linguistics domain

        • N.S. Rajaram

          Thank you again. I have discussed it in detail with Stephen Oppenheimer and others. I reviewed his book OUT OF EDEN as well as the implications of the M17 genetic marker. But this should be studied in combination with natural history of the Ice Age and the birth of agriculture.

          I have discussed some of this in the book HIDDEN HORIZONS: 10,000 YEARS OF INDIAN CULTURE that I wrote jointly with David Frawley. It was written at the request of BAPS Swaminarayan who distribute it.

          It is popular book written with young people in mind. I am currently working on a scholarly book that I have called THE GENES AND THE ALPHABETS OF TIME.

        • Ravi Chandran

          Thanks for your links to Oppenheimer research and Ted video. I do agree with Dr. Rajaram – the scripts can be deciphered only after we determine the context – hopefully someday it will be proven to be part of vedic society.

          • N.S. Rajaram

            It is fairly easy to show that Harappan symbolism is part of Vedic. In fact extraordinary evidence is needed to claim that Vedic and Harappan societies were different– both coming from the same geographical area with the same rivers all described in the Vedic literature. How can you attribute archaeology to one group and literature to another?

            This separation by introducing the claim of an ‘Aryan invasion’ is an extraordinary claim. And as Laplace said “Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.” And no evidence has been forthcoming so far to separate them– only dogmatic assertions.

          • Ravi Chandran

            Pardon my ignorance, Dr. Rajaram. I am pretty much a layman for this topic. I do believe Harappan civilization is a continuation of Vedic civilization. Looking forward to reading your book, when it is complete.

          • NS RAJARAM

            I will try to contribute columns on new and unusual findings as I keep working on my book.

  • Ravimpillay

    Sir , i would like to make a documentary for the world to know … could u connect with me .??

  • Mouton85111

    The Vedic civilization begins with the composition of the earliest hymns and prayers of the Rigveda. It takes us back to about 4000 BCE.

    The Rigveda is actually the work of ten different families and their descendants. There is no mystery about who wrote it. The Rigveda itself names all of them. Geniuses small in number created it.

    The Rigveda is the beginning of literature in India. The beginning of literature does not mean the beginning of simple inscriptions or the beginning of civilization.

    Merhgarh in the ancient Indian Northwest, now located in Balochistan, goes back to 7000 BCE.
    The legendary submerged city of Dwarka in Gujarat discovered some years ago is claimed to be older than that. But there is no literature in India is older than the Rigveda.

    The origins of our literature are about 6000 years old.

    While deciphering the Indus script is challenging and interesting, high culture and high Indian civilization has its roots in the advent of literature and that means the Rigveda.

    India has always been a multilingual subcontinent. Merhgarh is a local achievement whose influence spread to other parts of the region with passing centuries. Likewise the cities of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa were local achievements. The people who built them were people of the region who spoke their own languages or Prakrits as people in India do today.

    Some of the people of the region were farmers, craftsmen, artists, sculptors and others were architects, city planners and builders. They spoke their own languages not necessarily Sanskrit.

    And the rishis who composed the Rigveda were wordsmiths, literary geniuses, thinkers and philosophers. It is they who spoke and wrote in Sanskrit which they created themselves.

    All accomplishments in ancient India were local and regional achievements. Generally speaking, until 1947, India meant the subcontintent geographically. There never was an emperor of India, there never was any form of central government or a national military. India as a sovereign state is 65 yeras old. It is also the only country of its size without a national language. If you don’t have a national language you don’t have national literature.

    History of “ancient” India is not the history of a sovereign nation but a history of the subcontinent. Our national history begins in 1947. And it is very poor.

    The author himself is an Angreziwallah who basically communicates with other Angreziwallahs. He cannot communicate with the masses who cannot read and write in any language. Those who can are linguistically and intellectually fragmented.

    • NS RAJARAM

      Mouton8511 (or whoever he or she is) is entitled to his opinions but he is wrong to say a multilingual society cannot be a nation. Switzerland is multilingual but a nation.

      As for my being an Angreziwalla who cannot communicate with fellow Indians in their own language– he has no way of knowing and is completely wrong. I know several Indian languages including Sanskrit.

      I am also an award winning writer in Kannada, and have taught Hindi. It is always good to stick to what one knows and not pass opinions on anything and everything.

      Some people speak (and write) to inform, some only to impress.

      • Mouton85111

        You have a different view of what a future India should be if you are serious about a piddling outfit like Switzerland as your model.

        I did not say that a multilingual society cannot be a nation.

        If you look at ancient India itself all the great timeless classics in many different fields are in one language – Sanskrit. If you take that away there will be not be much left. Modern India contributes very little to the general pool of knowledge in the world.

        You picked Switzerland not China for comparison. China realizes the importance of one language. And also a smaller population. That’s why it is way ahead of India in science and technology. Most Indians are similar to you in their thinking.

        • N1gga

          China has one language? WTF are you talking about? There are 292 languages in China.

          • Mouton85111

            Hey Nigga, what are u on? Chinese do not run their universities in 292 languages but just in one which when speaking in English they simply refer to as Chinese. This is about national level education, literature, science and space research and that kind of stuff in China. We are not talking Ebonics, ghetto rap, hey mutha, that kinda crap.

            Russia also has many languages. But Russian is the only official language of that country.

        • Sameer AS

          Progress has nothing to do with language.

          China is ahead because its government is working towards it. In China, corrupts are shot dead.
          In India, the government is working against country’s progress. In India, corrupts are never punished.

          • NS RAJARAM

            Very good point. Linguistics has nothing to do with progress. The same Germans speaking German who were considered backward 150 years ago are now considered advanced.

    • Ravi Chandran

      You say that there is nothing to be gained by studying Indus scripts. How do you know that? If we know everything we need to know about ancient history, why bother studying any artifacts or history? Do you have any proven sources to back up the statements you have made in this post? Or are you such an authority on ancient history you don’t need to refer to any source? But you wouldn’t even post with your real name. And you have no trouble calling others names.

  • Mouton85111

    It is an impressive feat for anyone to decipher the Indus script. But at this point, with other massive evidence already available it is a marginal issue and has no bearing on reconstructing
    the Vedic period of India.

  • agath

    Dear NSR – Have you ever disputed/debated the views of people like Iravatham Mahadevan and Asko Parpola who have been proclaiming the Indus script as belonging to proto Dravidian? If so could be pls share any of those articles/journals with us?

    • NS RAJARAM

      Both Mahadevan and Parpola know my work with Jha and have written about it. But since they are set in their ways and offer no evidence for their Dravidian hypothesis (unlike our evidence of the Vedic symbolism in Harappan archaeology) they refuse to engage in debate. They expect everyone to accept their interpretations as proven facts.

      Parpola has compromised himself by accepting money from Dravidian politicians like Karunanidhi. Mahadevan has done nothing new in nearly 50 years. They will not change now. So I am targeting the younger generation.

      • agath

        True. I remember you saying that one needs to establish the context before even attempting to deciphering the scripts. But don’t you think you’ll be submerged in the context while doing so and can be easily misled in interpreting the scripts, as what your criticizers claim? Do you really think a neutral approach is not possible at all just because there is no rosetta stone like thing exists for the Indus scripts? What’s your opinion on dealing this completely with science and technology like what people like Rajesh Rao is doing, barring the fact that he himself has collaborated with Mahadevan?

        • NS RAJARAM

          My critics have not come out with anything coherent or logical like what you suggest. They simply assert it is false because it contradicts their theories, especially the Harappans as Dravidians and so forth.

          There is no single Rosetta Stone meaning a bilingual inscription but there are two ‘Rosetta texts’ that link Harappans and the Vedic. First, the Mokshadharma Parva of the Mahanharata tells us that the vocabulary of the Harappan inscriptions relate to the Vedic glossary known as the Nighantu and was known to its commentator Yaska. Next, it interprets the most common icons on the seals– the Bull, the Unicorn and the Three-headed creature in the Vedic context.

          This was Jha’s great and profound discovery. The rest is technique. May be I should write a couple of articles on it.

          No, I don’t think there is a purely ‘neutral’ or technical solution without this profound insight linking the Harappan writing and the Vedic symbolism and Vedic vocabulary. Jha called an earlier book of his VEDIC GLOSSARY ON INDUS SEALS. It had this basic idea and I built on it and developed the methodology.

          Methodology, scientific or otherwise cannot be an end in itself. It must shed light on the problem. I have used science– natural history and genetics, and even ancient mathematics quite extensively, but not for reading the script. This criticism goes for Rao and his approach.

          As for the Vedic people, no they were not all Punjabis but came from all parts especially the coastal regions. The movement was mostly from the coastal regions to the interior when large areas were submerged due to rising sea levels when the Ice Age ended. This is the other major breakthrouh due mainly to David Frawley and I had the good fortune of working with him also.

          The two most important Vedic seer families– the Bhrigus and the Angirasas have strong maritime connections. The most important fact to know: THE VEDIC PEOPLE WERE A MARITIME PEOPLE– not steppe nomads from Central Asia or Eurasia as the invasionists claim.

          So as Mouton85111 implies, the division of ancient Indians into Vedic and Harappan is artificial and arbitrary. They were one people whose ideas and practices evolved with time.

  • Mouton85111

    Who were the Vedic people? Were they all Punjabis?
    Were they native to the Northwest?

    The Vedic seers have recorded for posterity that in
    pre-Vedic times many tribes including theirs were
    on the move from their original home in various other
    parts of the country.

    The tribes migrated from one location to another,
    settled down then moved again, exploring the land,
    in search of a desirable place to settle down
    permanently. Their tribe and a number of other groups
    eventually made their new home along the banks of the
    Sarasvati river and nearby regions.

  • Mouton85111

    Rajesh Rao is running with ignorant dudes like Mahadevan and that other fellow from Finsky I believe that’s where he’s from.

    The Indus Valley Civilization is 19th century fiction. No such thing ever existed.

    There was only one civilization in the Sarasvati and Sindhu region from about 4000 BCE to about 1900 BCE when the Sarasvati river became desiccated. And that civilization is the Vedic civilization.

    It was a populous civilization with many creative groups of overachievers in different fields not necessarily speaking one language. In fact Sanskrit itself is a name given to the language of the
    Rigveda after the Rigvedic age ended.

    It is mindboggling that the Vedic seers created a cyclopedic work like the Rigveda in a spoken language. Rigveda is “spoken” literature composed over many centuries. Its creators trained a whole new class of priests who memorized every word in it and transmitted it to succeeding generations. Such an oral tradition preserved it without a single error until it was finally committed to writing.

  • Mouton85111

    No computer is going to tell you what
    a short string of symbols means.

    Rajesh knows it. What he claims to have
    done so far is that the large number of
    inscriptions on Indus seals are suggestive
    of a natural language. Which means that
    the inscriptions contain meaningful words.

    They are not aimless scribbles, marks or
    mindless doodles.

    • NS RAJARAM

      Seals and other artifacts in our possession must represent a very small fraction of the total number created over almost a thousand years. So these ‘aimless’ scribbles, made up of the same basic signs, were created by hundreds of people scribbling for over a thousand years!

      • Mouton85111

        Rajesh and company have done nothing more than just that -purportedly shown with their analysis that the inscriptions are not scribbles. They have done their best work. I don’t expect anything more from them.

  • Mouton85111

    There is an Indus seal accompanying this article that shows a unicorn bull. Along the top edge of the seal is a string of symbols. Are those symbols letters of a word? If it is a word how do you pronounce it? What does it mean? The article is silent on these questions.

    There is a second image. Below it is a line that says: Pre-Harappan Seal refers to ‘Ila’ (Sarasvati)
    No explanation is provided about how it was determined that it refers to ‘Ila’ .

    • N.S. Rajaram

      The string of symbols at the top is a message in the Indus (or Harappan) script. It reads: Ahave deepti…

      This is not the forum to go into how the writing is read. It is quite complex and technical and you will find the methodology explained in our book. You need to have knowledge of Vedic Sanskrit.

      The same goes for ‘Ila’ in the pre-Harappan example.

  • Mouton85111

    There are more than 4000 Indus seals according to some articles. How many different symbols(or letters if you will) have been counted in the short messages those seals contain? If the Indus is an alphabet-based language, from the 4000 or so short messages you should be able to recover many letters of its alphabet if not the entire alphabet. Further if the Indus script was an early attempt to commit “spoken” Vedic Sanskrit to writing, then it should be possible to match letters of the Indus alphabet to corresponding letters of the later Sanskrit alphabet to some extent – not necessarily a letter for letter match. The Indus is said to be right to left while our languages today are left to right. Does anyone have an explanation ? This kind of information is basic not technical or complex. It would go a long way toward winning the confidence of general readers because it is a fact that few believe the Indus script has been deciphered by anybody.

    • NS RAJARAM

      Read the book.

  • Mouton85111

    NS Rajaram to my previous post: “Read the book.” He and Jha assumed the direction of the Indus script to be left to right. Inscriptions on seals should be read right to left, all his peers say.

    • NS RAJARAM

      This will be my last comment to Mounton 85111 on this since this not a forum for debate or a correspondence course.

      We have specifically stated “Nothing definite can be said about the direction of writing.” And also emphasize that each seal has to be examined to decide on the direction. For example on the seal photo given in this article, you have to read from the right.

      People like Mahadevan have charged we read everything from left-to-write. But everything in his book is prepared from seal IMPRESSIONS on clay or something, which reverses direction like in a rubber stamp.

      Only Parpola in his book of seal photos gives both the seals and their reversed images. The carving of the seals was often done from right-to-left but their impressions have to be read in reverse. It is fairly easy to decide which. There is no definite rule.

      If others feel it is always from the right, why can’t they read a single inscription?

      My last posting on this topic.

  • Mouton85111

    Those people who lived some 4500 or more years ago deserve our utmost respect and admiration. Their Indus script is the earliest attempt in the subcontinent to develop an alphabet-based language.

    There are a number of people who have claimed that they have deciphered the Indus script. While posting a few messages here I looked into this subject a litttle bit.

    My take right now is that the script has not been deciphered. It is still an unknown script.

  • Mouton85111

    Claims to decipherment of the script are made by those who do not have a clear understanding of what constitutes proof of an unambiguous decipherment.

  • Rajot n pal

    I am highly impressed the works and enthusiasm of sirs Rajaram and Jha and did my way of decipherment of Indus-Saraswati script. please visit http://www.bhaaratalogy.in and advise. rajot n pal

  • Mouton85111

    Over the years, there have been 100 or so attempts and more than 30 claims of unlocking the script by various individuals or teams. Every claim of decipherment of the Indus script is false as of now.

    • agath

      More than being false, most of them have been dismissed only because those decipherments linked Vedas to the Indus Valley Civilization. According to European scholars Vedas cannot be dated beyond 1500BC, because the greatest of the great scholars and inventor of Sanskrit Mr. Max Mueller said so. Since there is no Rosetta Stone like thing exists for the Indus scripts, we need to come out of this stupid European mindset and analyze the scripts with open mind (irrespective of the date of Vedas), else we’ll not be able to decipher the scripts at all.

      • Mouton85111

        A point that makes sense in the rambling Hindutva rant above is “Since there is no Rosetta Stone like thing exists for the Indus script … we’ll not be able to decipher the script at all.”

        • agath

          Mouton85111 – Shows your cheap attitude. You picked words in between and used it to your advantage. Indus valley is indeed linked to the Vedic Civilization. We are least bothered if morons like you accept it or not. Finally Indians don’t need Europeans to write/judge her history.

          • Mouton85111

            Read my previous posts. There are not many. Only a few. Read what I said about the Indus Valley and Vedic civilizations. I don’t want to repeat what I have already said.

            You are a typical jacked up “ancient glory” Hindutva foot soldier who does not know whether he is coming or going.

          • Ravi Chandran

            From your posts, I assume you consider yourself not a “Hindutva” (whatever it means). Then can you tell us whom do you think you are? Apparently, you think you are the leading authority on the subject of calling people names. You have indicated that there are not many posts of yours – it will be true only after inserting the word “useful” before the word post.

          • Mouton85111

            Right. Not many useful posts from me for people like Chandran and others living on an imaginary “glorious past”. In ancient times most people in the subcontinent were nameless and faceless and lived in the forests and the hills. Today the same people probably number about 1 billion out of 1.2 billion. They are too poor, they cannot read and write and are forced to defecate in the open. They have no hope. Hindus are prodigious overbreeders though and quite good at making too many illegible carbon copies of themselves.

          • Ravi Chandran

            Point proven – you are the leading authority on calling people names – nothing else.

      • NS RAJARAM

        Well put. We, Jha in particular, used Yaska’s NIGHANTU as the Rosetta Stone. It gives a vocabulary that can bsed as a template in searching for words. I don’t expect this ‘Mouton’ to be literate enough to appreciate this.

        Most people who attack our book (and us personally) have never bothered to read it. This is why Jha and I held back our subsequent work– that it would not get a fair reading in this vitiated climate. I may now bring it out, but not if people continue to express negative opinions without reading it. I am not the loser if the work doesn’t ever come out.

        The vcery fact that this close-minded ‘Mouton8511′ rakes up ‘Hindutva rant’ as a cover for his prejudice and ignorance is reason for holding back our subsequent work.

        • agath

          Sir – Pls continue your great work and never bother about morons like Mouton. Right now this country needs people like you badly, to carry forward the glory of our past. One day the world will recognize your work. A few decades ago, when a lot of scholars debunked the Aryan Invasion theory, no one was ever ready to accept it. But today, Science is proving them right and has thrown AIT off. Hopefully in your case same will happen with Indus Valley too.

  • Mouton85111

    According to this NS Rajaram only he and fellow Hindutvavadis like Jha are the only people literate enough to appreciate their nonsensical claim of decipherment.

    This snake oil book, instead of leading the flaky Hindutva megalomaniacs out of their “stupid European mindset” imposed on them by colonial rulers, has brought ridicule upon Indian scholarship.

    The scholarship you’ll find in this book is reminiscent of PN Oak’s claim that the Taj Mahal was actually a Shiva temple known as Tejo Mahalaya before the Muslims usurped it and gave it an Islamic facelift. This kinda stuff always drives the Hindutva crowd into an ancienty glory of Hindustan, Bharat Mata Ki Jai frenzy.

    • VEERA

      The Dravidian theory by a British Evangelical Christian missionary know as Robert Caldwell is not a history falsely fed upon the Indian masses? And not the person Max mullar who believed the earth was 6000 years old or adam eve mith writing the Aryan invasion theory for white skin superiority over the others in the world? I felt some Christian connection with this. HIndutva is in the political platform and the Indian vedic history is purely in the historical platform for knowing the past. You must know the fact that the Indian history has been distorted by the biased British hisorians and it must be corrected by the Indians.

      • N.S. Rajaram

        It was combination of ignorance and British-Christian opportunistic prjudice and propaganda that is responsible for the Aryan-Dravidian myth and other distortions. Please read the my latest article on Indo-Europeans in the history column. This and its successor article will shed light on the latest scientific findings on ancient history.

  • Mouton85111

    “It is an impressive feat for anyone to decipher the Indus script. But at this point, with other massive evidence already available it is a marginal issue and has no real bearing on reconstructing
    the Vedic period of India.”

    The quote above is from one of my earlier posts. To which let me add the following.

    Decoding the script is not going to give us a key to a massive body of literature that currently remains inaccessible to us or anything like that.

    A bunch of seals each with a word, a phrase or a sentence from this or that Vedic Sanskrit text is not going to amount to much of anything.

    Forget about establishing a link between the Indus Valley and Vedic civilizations. There is only one civilization here and that is the Vedic civilization. Do not even go there. It’s a dead issue.

    A word about those books claiming to have deciphered the Indus script: None of them are worth the paper they are printed on.

  • cinnamoncat

    If you are interested in Indus script, please visit ‘Indus Script Dictionary’ on Facebook. There is an Indus sign list there, if you use it to decode a seal, the results may delight you!

  • N.S. Rajaram

    Update on the Indus Script
    At an international conference on the Harappan Civilization,
    scholars essentially supported the finding that the Indus (or Harappan) Script,
    was the ancestor of the Brahmi which was the position of N. Jha and N.S.
    Rajaram in their 2000 book THE DECIPHERED INDUS SCRIPT. It was also noted that
    it is possible to read Harappan inscriptions treating it as proto-Brahmi. This
    too was the finding of Jha and Rajaram who in their book gave hundreds of such
    readings. Here is the Times report.

    Harappan people used an older form of Brahmi script: Expert Swati Chandra, TNN |
    Nov 8, 2012, 03.24AM IST

    VARANASI: Is Brahmi the oldest script of India. The mysterious script of Indus
    Valley civilization, which is not deciphered yet may have some ancestral
    connection with Brahmi script can be deciphered in coming years.

    A palm leaf manuscript discovered from Harappan site in Afghanistan has
    strengthened the belief of existence of a proto Brahmi script, which was used
    by Indus Valley people. This discussion was raised by Dr DP Sharma, Harappan
    archaeologist and director, Bharat Kala Bhawan, Banaras Hindu University(BHU)
    in the International Conference on Harappan Archaeology held recently in
    Chandigarh.

    According to Sharma, who has carried out research works on the palm leaf
    manuscript with Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) for last five years, the
    palm leaf has Harappan as well as Kohi script engraved. “Kohi symbols and
    letters have an affinity with the Harappan script and hence can be very significant
    in the decipherment of Harappan scripts. At the same time the palm leave
    manuscript has seven lines, which is the longest script recovered from any
    Harappan site. So far the scripts or the signs of Indus Valley script engraved
    on tablets, seals, potteries and other objects had not more than 18 letters or
    pictures,” informed Sharma.

    Sharma also said, “The script on the palm leaf runs from right to left
    while Brahmi script runs from right to left. The objects discovered from
    excavation sites indicate that they were using two scripts as few objects have
    right to left run of the script while some objects have left to right written
    scripts. However, no traces of objects with bilingual scripts has been found so
    far of Harappan period, which suggests that there was only one script called
    Brahmi and the script that Harappan people used was an older form of Brahmi
    called ‘proto Brahmi’. During the mature Harappan period (2700 BC to 2000 BC)
    the direction of Harappan writing system was right to left and later on around
    2000 to 1500 BC they started their writing system from left to right. The
    existence of no long manuscript had posed the difficulty in deciphering the
    Harappan script, however, the manuscript on palm leaves may solve this
    problem”.

    Sharma further strengthens his argument by quoting the DNA analysis carried out
    by Dr Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, BHU. According to Sharma, the analysis by
    Singh suggests that the two ancient races Aryan and Dravidians were native of
    India and none of them came outside of our country. The Aryan and Dravidian
    races in India have the same genetic basis. This suggests that proto Dravidian
    and proto Aryan races were present in Harappan population and Harappan were
    using proto Dravidian and Sanskrit as their language and their script was proto
    Brahmi only.

    According to Sharma, during the conference, his research works in deciphering
    the Harappan scripts were also consolidated by BR Mani additional director
    general, ASI. “These new researches can help a great deal in deciphering
    the Harappan script and once the script is deciphered a number of mysterious
    seals, square pieces, pottery, coins and other objects can be read and hence we
    can know about their trade, literature, art and other aspects of
    civilization,” informed Sharma.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/Harappan-people-used-an-older-form-of-Brahmi-script-Expert/articleshow/17136460.cms

    • agath

      NSR – Great to know that finally things are turning out in favor of you and Jha. I have a few questions here

      1. I vaguely remember you mentioning somewhere that the Indus script was written from left to right but the quote mentioned by you says that it was initially from right to left and then became left to right. Can you clarify this?

      2. Was anything talked about Mahadevan’s decipherment in this conference by experts? Or was it completely rejected?

      • N.S. Rajaram

        As we noted nothing definite can be said about the direction of writing. There were regional variations and also it might have been written differently at different times. This is true of some Brahmi inscriptions also.
        But more important is to specify if you are looking at the seals themselves or of seal impressions on other material like clay (like a rubber stamp). This obviously reverses the direction.
        Most authors, Mahadevan included don’t specify what they have in mind. SO EACH SAMPLE HAS TO BE EXAMINED KEEPING ALL POSSIBILITIES IN VIEW. But it is not hard to tell which way it has to be read.
        Mahadevan has no decipherment, but only general ideas which have been proved wrong. The same holds for Asko Parpola. In addition, Parpola lost credibility by accepting a large sum of money from Karunanidhi to advocate the Dravidan ideology in the name of ‘scholarship’.

  • sujay rao

    INDUS SCRIPT WAS TRUE WRITING

    Please find my two papers below and circulate amongst the skeptics, particularly!

    To state the obvious, the Indus script was a logo-syllabic script and a lost corpus did exist.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/46387240/Sujay-Indus-Script-Final-Version-Final-Final

    Published in the ICFAI journal of history and culture, January 2011

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/111707419/Sujay-Indus-Reintroducing-Lost-Manuscript-Hypothesis

    Published in International journal of philosophy and journal sciences , November 2012

    I am also introducing logo-syllabic thesis B in this paper

    The paper is very self-explanatory! does anybody still beg to differ?

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli

    • N.S. Rajaram

      Thank you for the references. I am familiar witrh them but will consult them again.
      The Indus is a script in transition from a hybrid with logosyllabic components moving towards a phonetic-alphabetical system like the Brahmi with which shares several features.

  • Harshvardhan Singh Rawlot

    Respect Rajaram Sir,
    I am Vedik revivalist currently working to form a ‘Standard Vedic Sanskrit’. But first experimenting within Classical Sanskrit as first stage with ultimate goal to make a standard Vedik Sanskrit, based on Mantra period language.
    I have full respect and faith on your work. It is like ‘amrit’ to me. I was trying my best to find your book Deciphered Indus Script. I tried everywhere online, rang aditya publications, searched libraries but no luck. Though Rao’s, Hunter’s and Kak’s findings are good and interesting, your decipherment is only which I 100% trust and want to make new Vedik standard language using writing system or a close variant. I am software developer. I can make fonts for it. I have a network of many Hindutva young revolutionaries all over the world. If I can get your book somehow, then the my work would be 100% complete. Withing a year, I can make network of 1000 speakers of Vedik language and expanding it further using best of modern technology and internet. By propaganda videos, messages, FB groups and pages, etc. For this noble work I need your help. If you have some PDF or digital version saved, so please sir send me a copy at azadaryavart@gmail.com

    • N.S. Rajaram

      I will see what I can do, but it needs updating. Will be in touch.

      • Harshvardhan Singh Rawlot

        Though the main motive behind Vedik Revival is same as revival of Hebrew more or less but being purist to Vedik roots. But this mission would have another good bi-product, if this mission get enough success, Wikipedia would agree to start Wikipedia, Wiki sources, wiki books, etc. in Vedic Sanskrit written in standardize or modernized Saraswati Script. This would have wide results. Today’s information hungry public see wikipedia as primary source of information. Fighting the war on ignorance can not be won without wikipedia. Wikipedia also want neutral view. People would see Vedik language is indeed today ‘Indus Script’. The general public would see it more and more. For wikipedia, creating the team of 60-80 people who would be active in revivalist programs would be helpful. These people wouldn’t just rapidly expand Vedik Wikipedia but neutralize the content in English and Hindi wikipedia. English wikipedia have reactionary marxists always looking what is going on Indology articles! I tried my best to neutralize the Brahmi Script article, but I was alone there and they were 5-6 ignorant people. Though wikipedia claims to side consensus instead of counting votes, this doesn’t happen in some discussions and unfortunately, never in Indology. So such team would neutralize Indian history articles and keep and eye on them. Text books for schools across the world heavily copy pastes from wikipedia. In Indian school books, I have seen it lot in historical events of other countries specially. And many people forget what they learnt in school, to be honest most. They use wikipedia to verify everything. So wikipedia counts for nearly 70% of all a normal person uses of knowing or verifying something. And text books of schools are infamous for being biased, we can argue they are baised more successfully wiki support well written wikipedia articles. This can be basis of future revolution to end ignorance. After this, ignorant biased so called ‘scholars’ wouldn’t be trusted by general public for long.

        I have another questions… What are your views on Wakankar ji? I have read some of his rare works including small booklet made from his last manuscript which because of his sudden demise wasn’t edited, titled- “Vedik Arya Samasya”. How relevant is his work? In it he claimed that Ancient Egyptian civilization’s origin to be Vedik. I am closely viewing Kemetic revivalism, and indeed many theological concept of Kemetism does match to Vedik theology. If this is true either they migrated after vedik dharma was well established or vedik theology have long history before Vedas. The latter looks more true, as similarities between the Ancient Egyptian language and Sanskrit aren’t visible. So it can decent from some now extinct and unknown branch of Proto-Indo African.

        • N.S. Rajaram

          Wakankar was a tireless field worker but a poor writer and analyst even of his own findings. Also we know much more about what happened thanks to natural history and genetics. First we should get a correct picture of the origins and movements of people before interpreting the influences. This cannot be rushed.

          • Harshvardhan

            Whatever I come to know about yours and Natwar sirs work is from various articles I read. I am confused, how such an important book with such interesting use behind decipherement tactics can get out of print and Asko Parpola… So what was most common mistakes you think you made in that book both academic (ie facts in book) and strategic (to get your theory acceptance)

      • Harshvardhan Singh Rawlot

        Edit: “People would see Vedik language is indeed today ‘Indus Script’. ”
        should be-
        “People would see Vedik language is today indeed written in ‘Indus Script’ and it isn’t impossible to do so, as portrayed by Dravidianists.”

    • Harshvardhan Singh Rawlot

      Thanks :)

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