Published On: Sat, Nov 7th, 2009

St. Thomas In India: Myth or Truth?

St Thomas CrossAccording to Christian leaders in India, the Apostle Thomas came to India in 52 A.D., founded the Syrian Christian Church, and was killed by the fanatical Brahmins in 72 A.D. His followers built the St. Thomas Church near the site of his martyrdom. Historians however say this apostle, even if he existed, never came to India. The Christian community in South India was founded by a Syrian (or Armenian) merchant Thomas Cananeus in 345 A.D. He led four hundred refugees who fled persecution in Persia and were given asylum by the Hindu authorities.

This story was too commonplace to attract converts. So Christian leaders identified the merchant Thomas with Apostle Thomas and created the dramatic story of the Apostle’s persecution and death at the hands of the ‘wicked’ Brahmins of South India. This became current in the 16th century when the Portuguese gained control of the west coast of India and forced the Syrian Christians to follow the Catholic faith. The Portuguese also destroyed the Kapaleeswara Temple that originally stood on the site now occupied by the San Thome Cathedral on the beach.

The creation of this myth and the history is told in detail by the Canadian scholar Ishwar Sharan (not his original name) in his famous book The Myth of St. Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple. The purpose of the myth was to create a local martyr. Christianity depends heavily on the appeal of martyrs who are projected as victims like Jesus Christ. Then as now, Church leaders liked to pose as victims to generate sympathy and propaganda. But no matter how much they tried, the Hindus of India refused to supply the Portuguese with martyrs. So they were forced to create their own. So they turned the merchant Thomas into the Apostle Thomas killed by the Hindus.

The sketch of the original Kapaleeswarar temple on the Beach destroyed by the Portuguese.
The sketch of the original Kapaleeswarar temple on the Beach destroyed by the Portuguese.

In his foreword to Ishwar Sharan’s book the Belgian scholar Koenraad Elst wrote: “In Catholic universities in Europe, the myth of the apostle Thomas going to India is no longer taught as history, but in India it is still considered useful. Even many vocal ‘secularists’ who attack the Hindus for relying on myth in the Ayodhya affair, off-hand profess their belief in the Thomas myth. The important point is that Thomas can be upheld as a martyr and the Brahmins decried as fanatics.”

Targeting Brahmins to undermine Hinduism was a favorite tactic among missionaries. Elst gives the true picture: “In reality, the missionaries were very disgruntled that the damned Hindus refused to give them martyrs (whose blood is welcomed as ‘the seed of the faith’), so they had to invent one. Moreover, the church which they claim commemorates St. Thomas’ martyrdom at the hands of Hindu fanaticism, is in fact a monument of Hindu martyrdom at the hands of Christian fanaticism. It is a forcible replacement of two important Hindu temples (Jain and Shaiva) whose existence was insupportable to the Christian missionaries.”

Another motivation for the myth was to erase the unsavory record of the Catholic Church’s close association with the Portuguese pirates and even worse, the Goa Inquisition inspired by St Xavier. But serious scholars including Christians have rejected this myth as we shall soon see.

St. Thomas preaching to Indians (18th century woodcut)
St. Thomas preaching to Indians (18th century woodcut)

Who was this Apostle Thomas and why was his name invoked? The main sources relating to Apostle Thomas are two Gnostic (non-Biblical) texts known as The Acts of Thomas and the Gospel of Thomas. According to them Thomas was the twin brother of Jesus. For this reason the Thomas myth is not accepted by the Vatican because of a doctrinal problem: Jesus as the Only Son of God cannot possibly have a twin brother. (Greek for Thomas is Didymus, which means twin brother.)

Christians in South India who identify themselves as St. Thomas Christians claim that their ancestors were blessed by Apostle Thomas in 52 A.D. who preached from the Bible. This has no historical basis as we shall see. In fact, there is no evidence that Thomas even existed. His ‘history’ is full of contradictions as will become apparent.

Christians in South India who identify themselves as St. Thomas Christians claim that their ancestors were blessed by Apostle Thomas in 52 A.D. who preached from the Bible. This has no historical basis as we shall see. In fact, there is no evidence that Thomas even existed. His ‘history’ is full of contradictions as will become apparent.

As just observed the Portuguese missionaries who came to India in the 16th century found that they could not do without a local martyr and created the Myth of St. Thomas claiming that he was martyred in India. They gave no explanation as to how they discovered it more than 1500 years later. Marco Polo is supposed to have mentioned it but there is no authentic manuscript that can be attributed to him. Then there is the question of how he discovered it more than a thousand years later.

There is even a Mount of St. Thomas in Mylapore in Chennai with a tomb that is supposed to contain his martyred remains. But the problem is there are several such memorials spread across Persia, Acre (Turkey) and a few other places dating to different times, all laying claim to be the place where Apostle Thomas was martyred and buried!

After examining all the evidence, the late Father Heras, former Director of the Historical Research Institute, St. Xavier’s College, Bombay, said in 1953 that he was convinced that the tomb of St. Thomas was not in Mylapore. He had earlier said, quite emphatically in The Aravidu Dynasty of Vijayanagar, that the Portuguese account of their discovery of some relics was “a most barefaced imposture [with] all elements of a forgery.” Heras was himself a Jesuit father but also an eminent historian.

This is not the end of the story, for while denying the myth because it challenges Jesus as the ‘Only Son of God’ the Vatican wants to have it both ways. On September 27, 2006, Pope Benedict XVI gave a speech at St. Peter’s in Rome in which he recalled an ancient tradition claiming that Thomas first evangelized Syria and Persia, then went on to Western India, from where Christianity also reached Southern India. Syrian Christians derive status within the caste system from the tradition that they are converted Namboothiris (Brahmins), who were allegedly evangelized by St. Thomas after he allegedly landed in Kerala in AD 52.

Santhome Cathedral
Santhome Cathedral

There are serious problems with this theory: the Namboothiris started settling in Kerala only from the sixth century onwards, which means they did not exist at the time the alleged St. Thomas allegedly came to Kerala. So we have a possibly non-existent apostle preaching in the first century from a text, the New Testament, dating to the 4th century, to a people, the Nambootharies who settled in the sixth century or later. In reality the Pope’s original statement at St. Peter’s, reflected the geography of the Acts of Thomas, i.e. Syria, Parthia (Persia/Iran) and Gandhara (Afghanistan/northwest Pakistan)— all far removed from Kerala in the southernmost tip of India.

This is not the end to the contradictions. If Thomas landed in Kerala in 52 AD, he could not have taught from the Christian Bible (New Testament) with its four gospels which came into existence only in the fourth century. In fact Christianity did not exist at the time because there was no Christian scripture! In addition, the famous St Thomas Cross supposedly brought by him made its appearance in Kerala only in the sixth century, about the same time as the Namboothiri Brahmins. So it is quite possible that the highly ornate St Thomas Cross was borrowed from the Namboothiris, having nothing to do with St Thomas or even Christians. The Church borrowed its cross from the Egyptians and the oldest so-called St Thomas Cross is a pagan Persian symbol. (See picture.)

As if this were not confusing enough, Father Francis Clooney, a theologian with the Harvard Divinity School has stated that St Thomas had preached in Brazil, no matter that Brazil as we understand today was unknown in his time. According to Clooney, one Ruiz de Montoya, writing in Peru in the mid-seventeenth century, thought that since God would not have overlooked the Americas for fifteen hundred years, and since among the twelve apostles St. Thomas was known for his mission to the “most abject people in the world, blacks and Indians,” it was only reasonable to conclude that St. Thomas had preached throughout the Americas:

“He began in Brazil – either reaching it by natural means on Roman ships, which some maintain were in communication with America from the coast of Africa, or else, as may be thought closer to the truth, being transported there by God miraculously. He passed to Paraguay and from there to the Peruvians.”

So here is the substance of the St Thomas story. First, if he existed he was a twin brother of Jesus which is unacceptable because Jesus was the Only Son of God (born to a virgin). Next, he could not have preached Christianity in 52 AD because Christianity and the New Testament came into existence only in the 4th century, after the Council of Nicea called by Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 AD. The first Christians came to India with the Syrian merchant Thomas in 345 AD escaping persecution in Persia. This was probably because Roman and Persian empires were great rivals. The Namboothari Brahmins settled in Kerala only in the 6th to 7th century AD, so could not have been converted by Apostle Thomas in 52 AD using the Bible from three centuries later.

The gopuram of the present day Kapaleeswarar temple
The gopuram of the present day Kapaleeswarar temple

Finally, the myth was created by Portuguese missionaries in the 16th century with the help of pirates. They destroyed also the Kapaleeswara Temple and a Jain temple building the church known as San Thome in 1504. It acquired its present status and recognition as a cathedral (grand church) under British patronage in 1893. It was also the Portuguese who converted the Syrian Christians to the Catholic faith.

So, all these contradictions have to be reconciled before the myth of St Thomas can be taken seriously.

  • Neehar

    The kind of bull we are subjected to as young students of History in School… this is a real eye opener!

  • http://the-st-thomas-teller.blogspot.com/ Rishi Kumar

    Veda Prakash was the Tamil researcher who helped Ishwar Sharan. His work should not be ignored. It is in Tamil and of great value to Tamil scholars and students. He is listed on the new website The St. Thomas Teller at http://the-st-thomas-teller.blogspot.com/

    Note that paragraph 8 of this article appears twice (webmaster may delete one para), and the reference to “… a Mount of Thomas in Mylapore in Chennai with a tomb …” in incorrect. St. Thomas Mount or Big Mount is 8 miles south of Mylapore before the airport. It has a Portuguese church at the top and is the place where St. Thomas was killed according to the Portuguese legend. According to Ishwar Sharan the Mount originally had a Vishnu temple on it which the Portuguese destroyed before building the church. The tomb (there are two tombs in fact) is in San Thome Cathedral on the Mylapore beach not on the Mount.

    It should also be noted that the main promoter of this communal legend today is Chennai’s dubious self-styled historian S. Muthiah. He admitted once to an interviewer that there is no evidence for St. Thomas but he continues to promote the story as Mylapore history for reasons only known to himself.

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      Find out his source of affiliation and funding. Don’t be surprisedif the answer to my lead comes – “VATICAN Papacy”.

  • Anoop

    Its stated here that the remains of St Thomas are interred in Mylapore.This is wrong .They were transferred from Mylapore to the middle east from Madras in the first millenium itself.Hence this confusion.
    Please google King Alfred.He sent emmisaries from his court to Madras to visit this grave a long time before the Portuguese came.
    And by the way,there are no conclusive proofs against the arrival of St Thomas.
    He came at a time when there were Budhists in Kerala not Hindus.And for your kind information there were
    Nestorian communities in East Asia from ancient times.So what this shows is a bias and blatant manipulation of facts to appease the Hindutva ideology.What happened to the Budhists,the Christians did’nt wipe them out and enslave them in the caste system as Ezhavars,the upper caste Hindus did.
    We talk about the bad affects of political Islam,start talking about the political effects of Hinduism also

    • http://twitter.com/Naradauvacha Ekalavya

      This is how fables get clothed to make them look true! Uttering a bigger lie than the original is a patented form of Churchianity. That bloody 16th century Thomas was the fanatic who destroyed Kapaleeashwarar temple and converted ity into the revolting structure that stands there in so called Santhome, much like how the Vel Ilang Kanni amman temple got converted into the Velannkanni Church. The lies of the this marauding cult is slowly getting exposed throughout the world and surely all those entrapped in the “in the mental prison of prophetism” will surely escape from it’s confines soon

    • Sandeep Km

      Dear Anoop,
      It is your utter ignorance to state that buddhists got wiped by Hindus. In fact historical records states Hinduism was never intolerant against Buddhism, but with the spread of Advaitha Philosophy by Adisankara, virtually Buddhists got unified with Hindus religious views. In fact Hinduism is not actually a religion, but the way of life and customs were extremely religious and no scripture in Hinduism talks about a religion or define ‘religion’.This is why Hinduism actually has no so called conversion and practices of Hinduism has varied according to time and places.

  • http://thomasmyth.wordpress.com/ Vedaprakash

    Anticipating, i have started a blog here, in Tamil to reach the Tamil knowing people.

    http://thomasmyth.wordpress.com/

    This “Anoop”, if i am correct, the same “Anoop”, who confronted in http://www.nasrani.net last year.

    I have given enough evidences to them.

    However, they want yo go by hoax, frauds and forgeries, in spite of the Madras high Court proceedings exposing their nasty dealings.

    I am prepared to discuss anything on this issue.

  • shaan

    @anoop,
    “He came at a time when there were Budhists in Kerala not Hindus” – good comedy man.

  • http://hamsa.org Ishwar Sharan

    Anoop, you have got it all wrong all the way down the line. //

    Thomas was never buried in Mylapore because he never came to Mylapore. Full stop. //

    According to the Acts of Thomas, Thomas was interred on a hill of royal tombs in a desert country. by servants and family members of the Zoroastrian king who executed him. The king’s name was Mazdai which is specifically Zoroastrian. //

    The first reference to Thomas in South India is found in Marco Polo’s travel book Il Milione. Marco did not name the town in South India. Marco also did not visit South India. In fact, Marco was one of the great Christian liars of his time. His contemporary Dante also maintained that Marco’s stories were all fiction. New studies in Cambridge also point to the fact that Marco Polo very probably never went further east than Constantinople and that his travel book is pure fiction. //

    But Marco Polo was a popular author and the Portuguese believed him. It is the Portuguese who identified Mylapore as the place of Thomas’s martyrdom (hardly a martyrdom: he was executed for his crimes and because he refused to leave the country after King Mazdai requested him to do so). //

    Of course there is no proof that Thomas didn’t come to India. You cannot prove a negative, stupid! We are saying there is no positive proof that he did come to India. If you postulate a theory, you have to give positive proofs to support for it. The Indian Xians and other Thomasines have not done that. //

    King Alfred is of no consequence at all. He lived in the 9th century and there were Xians in India already from the 4th century. So where is the connection? What is the relevance of Alfred to Thomas? //

    Yes, Nestorians were here from the 4th century. Thomas of Cana was himself a Nestorian. More migrations came in the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries. They were everywhere on the West Coast all the way up to Kashmir and into China. They left crosses wherever they went including the 9th century stone cross on St. Thomas Mount which has Persian script on it. It is the Nestorians who destroyed temples and turned them into Thomas churches in Kerala (then blamed Thomas for the ugly deeds!). //

    All Buddhist scriptures refer to Brahmins with reverence and respect for their learning. Sure, there were Buddhists in South India. They never had a monopoly on religion or society at any time. So what is your point? Certainly the Brahmins have never at any time been powerful enough to destroy Buddhism or drive Buddhists away, nor would they want to. Buddhism is a school of Hinduism and not separate from it; it is you Dravidian racists who create the separation, not us. Nor was Hinduism (called Brahminism by you Dravidian racists) ever replaced by Buddhism. All this business of Buddhism vs Hinduism in Kerala is an invention of yours and the so-called secularists. Buddhism eventually collapsed from its own internal corruption and was eventually driven out of India by Muslim invaders, nobody else. //

    And lastly, where is the positive proof that Jesus or his look-alike twin brother Thomas ever lived? As Thomas Paine said, the Bible itself is not proved so what it says cannot be proof of anything. Think about that, Anoop. It appears that not only is Thomas in India a fraud, but Jesus may be one too! //

    Some St. Thomas reference links:
    1) http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/st-thomas-in-india-an-ias-officer-revisits-a-400-year-old-history-hoax-v-sundaram/,
    2) http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/st-thomas-in-india-thiruvalluvar-baptised-to-betray-hindus-b-r-haran/
    3)http://hamsa.org/vedaprakash-intro.htm (Tamil).

  • http://hamsa.org Ishwar Sharan

    Blog editor, pls. fix the last link http://hamsa.org/vedaprakash-intro.htm for Veda Prash’s Tamil-language study of the St. Thomas fable.

  • Dipanjan Basu

    I think the purpose of this article and subsequent comments both in favor of and against the article is to show how a particular religion or culture tries to propagandize its influence on other culture and religion. Whatever history says and whatever the facts are (which we may not be able to “prove” or “disprove”), we must have the mental and spiritual maturity to understand today that the implicit claim of superiority of one religion over other, which leads to conversion, is utter stupidity and shows the insecurity of the religion that tries to get converts. Hinduism has believed in the existence and validity of multiple paths. This in itself is sufficient to prove the point what these classes of articles try to make.

    • http://twitter.com/Naradauvacha Ekalavya

      The best reply would be to quote Dr. Koenraad Elst verbatim: Quote
      “Prophetic monotheism and Sanatana Dharma

      In the past century, people belonging to the Hindu-Buddhist cultural sphere have started projecting the characteristics of their own spiritual masters on the monotheist prophets. Thus, when Jesus says: “The Kingdom of God is among you”, meaning “I, Jesus, am the Kingdom of God”, these good-natured Orientals take it to mean: “The Kingdom of God is inside of you, waiting to be discovered through meditation.” They have started to say that the prophets were a kind of yogis who taught their followers a way to attain a divine state of consciousness.

      In fact, prophecy is radically different from yoga: it means allowing an outside entity, which in the case of monotheism is called Yahweh/God/Allah, to blow certain consciousness contents into your mind. Consciousness is not turned inward, but is (or believes it is) communicating with another Being. Moreover, the mind is not being emptied of its contents and made to rest in itself, as it is in yoga; on the contrary, it is being filled with a message beyond one’s control. The prophet receives a certain information: prophecy is like talking, though with an unusual partner via an unusual channel; but yoga is silence. Lastly, if it is correct that prophethood is a mental aberration and a delusion, then that makes it the very antithesis of yoga, which is an undisturbed and realistic awareness of pure consciousness.

      Yoga is not an erratic and disturbing experience which befalls you and drives you to tirades of doom and to outbursts against your fellow men. It is a systematic discipline and makes the practitioner calm and serene. The word yoga means discipline, control (it is also translated as “uniting”: not the soul with an outsider called God, but the mind with its object, i.e. concentration). Since its field of working is consciousness, it is not interested in outward experiences such as recognition and glorification, or martyrdom. There is nothing dramatic about yoga, in stark contrast to the dramas enacted and encountered by the prophets.

      The most remarkable difference between the prophets’ discourse and that of the rishis, is certainly this. The prophets all talk about themselves a lot. They think they are very special, this one person in this one body is different from the rest and has an exclusive relationship with the Creator. But the rishis talked about a universal way, a world order in which we all participate, a state of consciousness we can all achieve. If God is defined as that which transcends all worldly differences, the One above the Many, then this universalism is far more divine than the prophets’ exclusivism.

      What Hindus who have been trapped in a sentimental glorification of Jesus and other prophets will have to learn, is that the essence of Hindu Dharma is not “tolerance”, or “equal respect for all religions”, but Satya, truth. The problem with Christianity and Islam is superficially their intolerance and fanaticism. But this intolerance is a consequence of these religions’ untruthfulness: if your belief system is based on delusions, you have to pre-empt rational inquiry into it and shield it from contact with more sustainable thought systems. The fundamental problem with the monotheist religions is not that they are intolerant, but that they are untrue, (Asatya or Anrita).

      At this point many Hindus will be sincerely shocked, they will object, and Christian polemists will express the same objection: “By denouncing some religions as untrue, you are making a pretentious claim to knowing the ultimate truth.” In the case of Christians who know and believe the essence of their religion, this objection is highly insincere, as they themselves are confidently claiming to possess the ultimate, God-given truth. Otherwise, the objection against absolute truth-claims may be valid. The point is that by denouncing the defining beliefs of Christianity (and similarly, Islam) as untrue, we are not making a claim to know the final truth. The quest for the final truth remains open. When scientists find that a certain hypothesis is empirically disproves, they henceforth treat it as untrue and move on to more promising hypotheses; this does not imply a pretentious claim to ultimate truth. It is simply that once a belief is found to be untrue, we should not burden ourselves with it anymore, so that we can keep ourselves free for something more true.

      There are other respects also in which Christianity and Sanatana Dharma are radically different. Christianity worships a suffering convict on the cross, and consequently glorifies suffering. To a woman who was heavily suffering, mother Teresa wrote: “You should be grateful for this suffering. It is Christ’s way of kissing you.”

      In a sense, there is something to it that “hardships are the spice of life, they mould the perfect man”. Even so, the unabashed glorification of happiness is a far healthier attitude than the glorification of suffering. Hardships will come anyway, but it is morbid to focus the mind on them unnecessarily. When Christians hear Chinese people wish each other “much wealth” or in fact “much money”, on New Year’s day, they find it rather shocking. When they see depictions of Lakshmi or Ganesh, with all their opulence and well-being and endless generosity, they find something is very wrong. At any rate, it is a kind of iconography which you will not find in any church.

      Like Christianity, several Sanatana traditions, esp. Buddhism, focus on suffering. But they have an unambiguous verdict: suffering is the problem, we offer a way out of it. The common-sense position of mainstream Hindu sources like the Bhagavad Gita is that suffering is a fact of life, that we have to bravely face it, that enduring it makes us stronger; but not that we should glorify it. In Christianity, a straightforward remedy against suffering is always resented as a bit selfish; since we are sinners, suffering is what we deserve.

      This attitude to suffering is symptomatic of the single most harmful characteristic of Christianity: its lack of balance. In traditional Pagan and secular systems of ethics, the principle of the Golden Mean is duly emphasized (Aristotle, Confucius, Buddha); by contrast, Christianity fosters a sentimental extremism.

      The only Bible books that consist of lucid observations about life, are non-prophetic books like Proverbs and Qohelet (Ecclesiastes). They belong to a section of the Old Testament called Ketuvim, “Writings”, for which no divine source is claimed. Their source is just human and normal, rather like any collection of quotations or “Collected Proverbs from the Middle East”. These sayings range from the trivial and uninspired to the witty and the profound. Some good, some not so good, a few gems: your average human product. These human sayings have some good advice to offer on how to conduct life; in the prophetic revelations, it is hard to find any such good advice.

      Prophetism has caused innumerable hardships without giving anything valuable in return. Not one of the valuable things in the cultures dominated by it, can be traced to their prophetic-monotheistic component. Its source has more often than not been mental darkness. Today, there is no justification for keeping humanity in the mental prison of prophetism any longer. ” From The Psychology of Prophetism” http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/pp/ch4.htm

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GN6BOGQBOLFGD3T6625HRY4DXU sb2011

        Excellent selection !

  • http://nill Dr.Tt.A.Koshy,M.D,

    Thre is no denying the fact that christianity in S.India is about 2000 years old. The first converts were from jewish settlers in Maliankara an island near kodungallore- Kerala.Then ofcourse there were conversions from locals.The first converts were known as Issanis- after the Essenes sect that had settled near Kunnamkulam.In the early years Aramic/Syriac was the liturgical l anguage.The Roman catholic faith with Pa-ppal authority came into existence only after 1498- after the arrival of Vasco de Gama. There were many immigrations from syria,persia .

    Mani from Persia in the third centuary created some confsion with hisown brand of faith combing practi ces from christianity and budhism and founded Manicheism .Manichaeism had a large followig world-wide.There is mention of this in ‘silapathikaram.
    ‘.
    The cardinal truth about christianity is that it beleves in one God with three manifestations and Jesus Christ was only a temporary earthly manifestation of God.Jesus Christ had ‘REAL humanity with FULL DIVINITY’.His message is love your God with all your heart mind and soul and one should love his neibhour.

  • arivalagan

    Great work! commendable. We need to make this story known to all the people of India. If possible some national television or some international television has to telecast a documentary about this age old fraud.

    I grew up in a Christian instituition very close to this place. I remember seeing stone carving remains of some age old Hindu styled pillars that were still noticed around very much within the Church premises.

    Chennai and Most of TN and India are under the clutches of this fake clan.

    Ishwarji/Veda Prakash ji, I would greatly appreciate you guys if you could get some western media like CNN/NBC etc to do a documentary about this 1500 yr old Joke that is Indian Christianity.

    All the best for that.

    Salute you for the brilliance in this intelligent well substantiated article.

  • http://devapriyaji.wordpress.com Devapriya Solomon

    Dear Koshy,

    Jews came to India only after the raise of Islam in Persia and Arabia in 6th Century.

    Very few Handful of Refugees could have been in Kerala in 4th Century after Roman Christianity was formed and other Christian sect were persecuted.

    These are very tiny population.

    Christianity as we call today came to India in 16th Century only. And Jesus did not want non-Jews as Christ in Judaism is a War Fighter against Pagan Romans only and either Jesus or his Disciples has anything to do with what we call Christianity.

  • http://devapriyaji.wordpress.com devapriyasolomon

    I believe that few of the friends and point raisers are same as

    http://nasrani.net/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/

    I have explained various highly valued Historians that Jews came to Kerala only 6th or 7th Century and Jews were never Sailors in Sea as per Old Testament.
    Bible As Literature, Oxford University Press,
    written by 3 Professors John.A.Gabel, Charles B.Wheelr and Antony.D.York.
    How was Hebrews living during OT times.
    The small Corner of the Eastern Mediterranean, we have to keep reminding ourselves that it take up only Lower Third of that coast- particularly speaking was the Whole World to them.
    Page-77
    With Just a Few Exceptions, No Canaanite Or Israelite City before the Roman Period occupied more area than that of an American University Football Stadium, most Villages were hardly bigger than the Playing Field itself. King’ David’s Jerusalem is estimated to have measured about 300 x 1300 foot. Inside the City-walls houses would be crammed together according to no particular pattern, leaving room for Passages bu not for Streets. Before the Greek Period there were no Public Building of the Kind that we take for granted, provided by the Municipal Government.
    Pages- 87,88
    Foreign Countries appear in the OT only as Military Allies or Enemies of the Israelites or as the Habitat of Alien Gods; otherwise, not a Slightest interest is shown in them.
    Page-77
    The Best Opportunity for Economic Development, it might seem was One they never took; Commerce by Sea with Mediterranean always at their door, the Israelites stubbornly remained a Land Locked People. They were effectively Shut off from the Coast at first by the Philistines, but the warfare between the two, more had to do with the Philistines attempt to expand toward the east than with any desire of the Israelite to gain access to Sea. Although the Palestinian Coast has no natural Harbors south of Carmel, this need not have been a Permanent Obstacle.
    The Israelites were Content to Let others – Phoenicians and Egyptians conduct their Merchant Shipping for them, almost as though they Believed the Covenant Language in its Narrowest Sense as a Promise of Land and Nothing Further.
    It is clear from their writings in the OT THAT THE SEA WAS ALWAYS to them, had no significant part to Play in their Thought.
    Pages 86-87.
    Few Refugee Christians after formation of Roman Christianism came in 4th or 5th Cen. Jews came later.

    St.Thomas even you consider the fables of Acts of Thomas preached and died in A Desert Country as per following Verse.

    The Ninth Act: of the Wife of Charisius.
    87 And when the apostle had said these things in the hearing of all the multitude, they trode and pressed upon one another: and the wife of Charisius the king’s kinsman Ieapt out of her chair and cast herself on the earth before the apostle, and caught his feet and besought and said: O disciple of the living God, Thou Art Come Into A Desert Country, For We Live In The Desert;

    SOUTH INDIA WAS NEVER A DESERT..
    Dr.Joseph Kolangodan wrote a book “The History of Apostle Thomas” and it has the total appraisal from a fellow Christian, Professor John Ochanthurthi, Dept. of History, Calicut University

    As the Well known Orientalist and Syriac Scholar George Every in his book, “CHRISTIAN Mythology” “India of this Legend(Acta) is cerainly not Malabar and may not be in the Indian Peninsula”
    Page-76
    “As for as I could see from all the Shreds of Quotations presented by Prof. Kolangadan in this Volume, the antiquity of St.Thomas Tradition in South India cannot go beyond 13th Century. So for as direct and explicit support in favour of the St.Thomas Tradition in South India is concerned, I have No Doubt that the answer must be, None. Neither the Church Fathers nor the Apocrypal Acts say anything explicityly about Malabar.” Page 79
    I also refer to “Church History of Travancore” by C.M.Agur, (released by the Church in commemoration of Centenary Celebrations of the Church in 1903) reprint 1990, refers to the Merchant Thomas of Cana who came in 745 AD and clearly affirms-

    “ Long after his Death the people Canonised him and the Subsequent Generation confused St.Thomas the Armenian Merchant with St.Thomas the Apostle, who never came to Malabar. This Confusion becomes more potent when we look in to the names of the Churches said to have been founded by the Merchant Thomas are Identical with the names of the Churches attributed to St.Thomas. Page-12

    I quote from History of Christianity-Vol-I A.M.Mundaden:
    “Dr.Walter J. Fischel, ‘the Greatest Authories on the Jews of Cochin’ prefersto refrain from taking any definite position regarding the pre-sixteenth century history of Kerala Jews.” Page-20

    How Reliable is Acts of Thomas?
    Holy see’s Publisher “Burn Oares & Wash Boune Ltd’ has Published Multi Volume –“Butler’s Lives of Saints” Edited by Rev.Alban Butler (with Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur from Two Archbishop for its Doctrinal Acceptance) says-

    “.. the Syrian Greek who was probably the fabricator of the Story would have been able to learn from Traders and Travelers such details as the name Gondophorus with Tropical details.. Pages 213-218, in Volume December-21.

    The Authors have gone through all the major works of the claims of St.Thomas Indian visit claims and one of the highly acclaimed work of “The Early Spread of Christianity in India” – Alfred Mingana connected this with Apostle Thomas visit claims and clearly affirms-
    . “ It is likely enough that the Malabar Coast was evangelized from Edessa at a later date, and . that in the course of time a confused tradition connected this with Apostle Thomas himself.”

    And I made a similar Comment here which was not allowed, hence I am publishing it here
    http://devapriyaji.wordpress.com/saint-thomas/
    http://devapriyas.indiainteracts.in/2008/12/02/fables-of-saint-thomas-visit-spread-through-internet-and-our-response/

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  • Mangesh khot

    Why Indian Christians do not share their own the Vatican theory.They still chant the murder that did not took place. In fact there were murders by Christian Missionaries and their accomplices.I have visited church in Mexico where priests killed thousands who refused to accept Christianity. Mexican government has accepted the fact as it is., even if the official Religion is Christianity .
    In India can Christians church show the same courage to accept the truth ?

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      I don’t think it can. It will not help the church in Anlicising the masses. Both the politicians and churxch have their vested intersts in votes and conversions. Local Indian politicians have a very mean mind.

  • Kathirkamini

    There are church records from Church Fathers before the third century saying thatthe mission field of St Thomas was India. I believe them more than anyone else.

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      Church is the most organised corporate house. Read the history of Vatican neck deep in violence, lies, prostitution, pedophilia, drug trafficking, mafia financing etc. Please do not react but use it as your guide for home work. You will know the reality of Vatican. Resignation of Pope Benedict XII will give you lot of information which did not happen in last six to eight centuries. I was amazed to know all these problems afflicting the vatican papacy. Pope Pius XII was accomplice of Hitler in massacre of Jews. All this is well known. Hence please do not get misguided by Church records. Most of them are fabricated, respecfully. How Pope John Paul I died is a mystery. Also the history of Vaticon Bank is amazing.

  • George Varghese

    My family tree right up from the first convert from St. Thomas is preserved in our ancestral house in Kerala, so, whoever wrote this article had vested interests. This cannot rock the belief of Indian Christians.

    • http://twitter.com/Naradauvacha Ekalavya

      You could have published this myth too!. When the authors of the Bible can create a myth called jesus. Your “tree” is but another another “creation”

      • Pawan

        Right Eklavya!! These so called Indian Christians are crucifying Shri Jesus Ji again and again by telling lies…………..about their family lineage and by indulging into idolatory of Thomas.

      • Krishnan

        The brutal aspects of Hinduism is never discussed in any forum and when someone tries to, they were dismissed or ridiculed. An ideology that treats its own people as inferior and discriminates deserves no respect. This is an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

        It took on frail Christian woman to shake up Kolkata. It took a few hundred humble Nuns to wake up this country and shame them into looking at the appealing conditions of the majority of non caste Hindus. They may be listening to myths and worshiping non existent Gods. But their myth is definitely better than ours because it respects human beings and treats them as humans than animals.

        • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

          Mr Krishnan, I do not deny that there were violences in Hindu communities. Unfortunately vested interests go with every human society. Hidus do have their share.

          Now comming to your next half of veiled praise for Mother Teresa, if I got it right. I live very near to her place and I shall request you do a bit more of home work on her life. She is today because she was a Catholic. Respectfully she was/is a created myth just like St Thoma myth. Media are controlled in India by Vatican clandestine money. How she was exploited by Malcolm Muggeridge in her early quest when she arrived in India as a young beautiful twenty year nun with no roots, Please read a little more. The misfortune of Hindus is that India has been colonised for centuries and the myth or reality of caste is further imposed on Hindu society by the British in collaboration with Church. Now of course our pseudo-secular comunal politicians of all hues have found an easy goal. Recall the recent verdict of Allahabad High Court trying to ban the caste political rallies. Hence blaming Hindus for all ils will be naive and unfortunate amnesia of realities. I hope, it should help you for further reality check. I have writen extensively on these issues. People like should lead the society. We have plenty of fault finders.

    • Idealist

      Does it also say when your ancestor was fucked by some westerner? And thus you stopped being a Hindu? You are just and another convert.

      • Adharma

        @idealist Ultimately we are all products of a good fuck! Didn’t your pop fuck your mom to beget you! Idiot!

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      George, respectfully, how can we know its authenticity? Church is very well organised corporate house, if you don’t mind my asserting it? Vatican is the most controversial house, I hope you will agree.

  • DharmaRepublic

    ROMAN empire created the CULT of YH-ZEUS, to CONTROL the empire better, they ENFORCED ONE STATE RELIGON..called KHRISTIANITY. They enslaved africans, native americans, south americans, australians, chinese, and the Indians. They tortured abused, raped, millions of people who where not EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN. European covnert others, so they then can USE THAT CONVERT, to push through pro european agenda in india. The european looted india, in 1700 indian gdp was 25% of the world, in 1952 it was less than 4%. That plunder by europeans is now RETOLD by christian priests, of how Indian where kept in poverty. Now does it matter that the immense poverty in india, WAS DIRECTLY DOWN TO THE IMMENSE PLUNDER BY EUROPEAN NATIONS?.. European NEEDED workers to carry out their AGENDA, today they are called christians, who take orders from europe in the image of YE-ZEUS a distorted name of YESHUA, and ZEUS. European murdered, raped, abused, children infront of their indian parents, to convert them. TODAY THESE INDIAN CHRISTIAN SLAVEEESS…are STILL carrying on their INTELLECTUAL SLAVERY, that was forced onto them by EUROPEAN PIRATES.. Christian converts live in DENIAL, they DONT WANT TO ACCEPT THAT PIRATES, took their family, abused them, RENAMED THEM, and then MADE THEN WORHSIP A white european god.HOW SICK AND SAD, these converts are!!…

  • DharmaRepublic

    Pope Benedict XVI made the statement at the Vatican on September 27, 2006. Addressing the faithful during the Wednesday catechises, he recalled that St. Thomas first evangelized Syria and Persia, and went on to western India..Pakistan today. The import of the statement was that St. Thomas never travelled to south India, but rather evangelized the western front, mostly comprising today’s Pakistan.

    AGAIN THE STORY OF PIRATES IN PRIEST CLOTHING IS FIRST 100% CORRECT, AS A SLAVE EMEPIRE, THAT TORTURED AND ABUSED HEATHENS, is a character trait which christianity has ebodied for 2000years!!…The genocide of american, indian, african, chinese, australians.

  • DHARMArepublic

    What do these CONVERT slave christian think when EVEN GENETICS disproves a CORE CHRISTIAN LIE…..the ARYAN THEORY??even then they cant let go of their CHRISTIAN SLAVE MASTERS brainwashing!!Its sad that CONverts, do not have the STRENTH TO CHANGE WHAT THEY CAN, the courage withstand what they cant and THE WISEDOM TO MAKE A CHANGE..its SAD these CONverts, are nothing than MERE WORKERS OF EUROPEANS…its sad THAT THESE CONverts, who BELEIVE in god, are acutally carrying on a system of slavery, conversion, abuse, hatred, intolerance……EVEN WHEN EVERY GENETIC ARTICLE IN THE WORLD, states that NO aryan migration took place, into india, THEY STILL HOLD ON TO LIES..

    >>For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India , through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

    -Stephen Oppenheimer

  • DharmaRepublic

    The banquet was given in Cesare’s apartments in the Palazzo Apostolico. Fifty prostitutes or courtesans were in attendance for the entertainment of the banquet guests. After the food was eaten, lamp stands holding lighted candles were placed on the floor and chestnuts strewn about. The clothes of the courtesans were auctioned; then the prostitutes and the guests crawled naked among the lamp stands to pick up the chestnuts. Immediately following the spectacle, members of the clergy and other party guests together engaged in sexual activity with the prostitutes.[1] According to Burchard: “Prizes were offered–silken doublets, pairs of shoes, hats and other garments–for those men who were most successful with the prostitutes.”[2]
    According to William Manchester: “Servants kept score of each man’s orgasms, for the pope greatly admired virility and measured a man’s machismo by his ejaculative capacity.”[3] Manchester also refers to the use of sex toys.[

  • DharmaRepublic

    In 1705, the Virginia General Assembly

    “All servants imported and brought into the Country…who were not Christians in their native Country…shall be accounted and be slaves. All Negro, mulatto and Indian slaves within this dominion…shall be held to be real estate. If any slave resist his master…correcting such slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction…the master shall be free of all punishment…as if such accident never happened.”

  • DharmaRepublic

    At least from 1540 onwards, and in the island of Goa before that year, all the Hindu idols had been annihilated or had disappeared, all the temples had been destroyed and their sites and building material was in most cases utilized to erect new Christian Churches and chapels. Various viceregal and Church council decrees banished the Hindu priests from the Portuguese territories; the public practices of Hindu rites including marriage rites, were banned; the state took upon itself the task of bringing up Hindu orphan children; the Hindus were denied certain employments, while the Christians were preferred; it was ensured that the Hindus would not harass those who became Christians, and on the contrary, the Hindus were obliged to assemble periodically in Churches to listen to preaching or to the refutation of their religion.”

    “A particularly grave abuse was practiced in Goa in the form of ‘mass baptism’ and what went before it. The practice was begun by the Jesuits and was alter initiated by the Franciscans also. The Jesuits staged an annual mass baptism on the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul (January 25), and in order to secure as many neophytes as possible, a few days before the ceremony the Jesuits would go through the streets of the Hindu quarter in pairs, accompanied by their Negro slaves, whom they would urge to seize the Hindus. When the blacks caught up a fugitive, they would smear his lips with a piece of beef, making him an ‘untouchable’ among his people. Conversion to Christianity was then his only option.”

    The Goan inquisition is regarded by all contemporary portrayals as the most violent inquisition ever executed by the Portuguese Catholic Church. It lasted from 1560 to 1812. The inquisition was set as a tribunal, headed by a judge, sent to Goa from Portugal and was assisted by two judicial henchmen. The judge was answerable to no one except to Lisbon and handed down punishments as he saw fit. The Inquisition Laws filled 230 pages and the palace where the Inquisition was conducted was known as the Big House and the Inquisition proceedings were always conducted behind closed shutters and closed doors. The screams of agony of the culprits (men, women, and children) could be heard in the streets, in the stillness of the night, as they were brutally interrogated, flogged, and slowly dismembered in front of their relatives. Eyelids were sliced off and extremities were amputated carefully, a person could remain conscious even though the only thing that remained was his torso and a head.

    Diago de Boarda, a priest and his advisor Vicar General, Miguel Vazz had made a 41 point plan for torturing Hindus. Under this plan Viceroy Antano de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule :
    “I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression.”

    In 1567 the campaign of destroying temples in Bardez met with success. At the end of it 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Enacting laws, prohibition was laid from December 4, 1567 on rituals of Hindu marriages, sacred thread wearing and cremation. All the persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished.

    A religious fatva was issued on the basis of the findings of Goa Inquiry Commission. It stated,”…Hereby we declare the decision that the conventions mentioned in the preamble of the fatva as stated below are permanently declared as useless, and therefore prohibited”.

    Prohibitions Regarding Marriages

    -The instruments for Hindu songs shall not be played.
    -While giving dowry the relatives of the bride and groom must not be invited.
    -At the time of marriage, betel leaf packages (pan) must not be distributed either publicly or in private to the persons present.
    -Flowers, or fried puris, betel nuts and leaves must not be sent to the heads of the houses of the bride or groom.
    -Gotraj ceremony of family God must not be performed.
    -On the day prior to a wedding, rice must not be husked, spices must not be pounded, grains must not be ground and other recipes for marriage feast must not be cooked.
    -Pandals and festoons must not be used.
    -Pithi should not be applied.
    -The bride must not be accorded ceremonial welcome. The bride and groom must not -be made to sit under pandal to convey blessings and best wishes to them.

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      Very informative. I always read the comment section which is more informative than the actual column. It is painfully informative to knowthat even christians used the same destructive inhuman policies of building their Churches like Mosques on the same site after destroying the temples and using the same materials as much as they could. Rest of material was used to trample upon to indignify Hindus or making steps of mosques. I suppose the Christians must have not been behind if not ahead of Islamists. No wonder that Islam and Christians are at loggerheads in Middle East and North Africa. It is frihteningly alarming.

  • DHARMAREPUBLIC

    In addition to defining the status of enslaved blacks, the 1690 code explicitly spelled out the punishment for those who struck a white person and for runaways. First offenders were severely whipped, followed by slitting the nose and burning “some part of his face with a hot iron” and even death for those who attacked whites a second or third time. Enslaved blacks found off the plantation without written permission from their master were considered runaways. Those who ran away more than once could be branded with an R on their cheek and might suffer the loss of an ear.

    Castrating male slaves and branding an R on the left cheek of female slaves punished a fourth offense.

    A fifth failed attempt could be punished by either cutting the tendon in one leg or sentencing the enslaved person to death. .

    WHEN WILL CONverts WAKE UP??

    • RM

      The day the Hindus reconvert Xian converts to high caste Hinduism that day I will believe in their crocodile tears and fake concern for converts. You just want your low castes back to maintain your social status quo. While I am not a Christian and don’t believe Jesus is God, I find Christians a better people than Hindus are or ever will be.

      • NS RAJARAM

        Only a fool would reconvert to a higher caste when all the benefits go to the lower castes. Look at false caste certificates being submitted– all of them claim the lowest caste. No one wants to move to a higher caste, but want their daughters to marry an upper caste boy if he is well settled.

        So let us drop this hypocrisy. It is well known that Christians practice caste discrimination even in churches (as do Muslims) but the government doesn’t act because they are ‘minority’.

        • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

          Fully agree. It is a vote bank and money bank politics which has killed the spirituality and morality. The definition of Humanity needs an urgent revision.

    • RM

      Don’t get me started on the treatment meted out to lower caste Hindus by the likes of you for centuries. Even if the shadow of the lower caste fell on a higher caste, we all know what would happen to the poor low caste man. So shut the fuck up!

      • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

        RM, I could agree with you and I also agree that it is still prevalent in certain areas in India. But where you may or may not know is that it is not the Hindu who is responsible but the politicians and the christian missionaries. Both of them have their vested interests. Keeping the “Hindu” bashing is a ploy to shut him up so that both theives can continue their game unabashed. Hope it may clear some of the dichotomies. Unfortunately the majority of Anglicised media, which hold the power weilding “ideological baton” in their lap are anti-Hindu because they are funded and monitored by Vatican black money as well as the Saudi petro-dollars again rerouted via US. Hence Hindus will keep suffering until and unless an awareness wakens up in Hindu masses. Language is the biggest barier. Church is pouring emmense amount of oney to dominate the English market in Hindu society. They control most of the higher education. Please enlighten yourself. Thanks for persevering.

  • Karthik

    Excellent analysis!! Next please expose Ramayana and Geetha for the mythical writing they are and Rama as the story-king who never lived. Also Mohammad has been proved to be non-existent too by a German scholar. Every religion should be shorn off its mythical origins and exposed.

    • Swami Yeshuananda

      The Ramayana and Mahabharata are indeed myths. Where you are wrong is in thinking that “myth” means “false.” Myths are stories that convey deep and universal truths. The Mahabharata, for instance, reflects the internal battle between the Self and the ego. Further, some myths may be literally true. Learn to respect faith.

  • Sohan

    Religion shorn of myths would appeal hardly any one. The faithful need no argument. Selective debunking of myths is irresponsible and a sign of mentality soaked in hate.

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      Please distinguish between religion and spirituality; so also between thm and organised religion.

  • Chacter

    DHARMAREPUBLIC people like you are a curse on our country. It’s people like you who spread religious intolerance and hatred.

    • Swami Yeshuananda

      To be fair, articles like the above spread religious intolerance and hatred as well.

      • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

        Are there masqueraders on this site?

  • Chacter

    Why are people so eager to debunk Christianity? All civilizations have indulged in murder and pillaging in the past. That’s what humans tend to do. Live and let live in peace folks.

  • Swami Yeshuananda

    Namaste. I see no proofs here, only ignorance and nationalism disguised as scholasticism. Your writing is infused with much animosity and disapproval of Christianity, your frequent use (and abuse) of grammar and punctuation only further demonstrates the lack of clarity in what you have attempted to write. The above is not, by any means, something to be taken seriously. It is a childish rant of one rooted in ego and unable to abandon his own misconceptions.

    Further, Christianity was not established in 325 AD by Constantine. That would be impossible since, when Constantine was born, the Romans had already been persecuting Christians for two centuries. Writings of Roman persecutions against Christians exist dating to the early second century. Further, you claim that the Christian scriptures were not written until the fourth century. What you refer to are extant copies, not the original manuscripts. Modern scholarship confirms that the writings of the New Testament date to the first century, most within 50 years of the life of Jesus. Many Gnostic Christian scriptures date to the second century. You cannot turn to “serious scholars” and then reject what they say when it contradicts you. You too must be held accountable for what it is you speak, or you will only look like a fool.

    Further, the clergy of the Church whose writings established Christian understanding over centuries, many of whom lived before this date, confirm that Thomas came to India. Those immediately after this date confirm that Thomas came to India. The Gnostic Acts of Thomas confirms that Thomas could have come to India. Syrian Orthodox apostolic succession also demonstrates that Thomas came to India. Finally, and perhaps most convincingly, is the fact that Christians in Kerala, of whose families no one can speak but them, attest to Thomas being in India and hold to traditions family traditions which confirm the same. All of these testimonies must be proven wrong, and millions of people proven to be liars, before your above article can truly be taken seriously.

    May you be blessed with patience and understanding.
    Swami Yeshuananda

  • Cdj1844

    The Syrian Christians are hard working people. They became rich and live with out depending on government aid. Looks like people of other religions in India are jealous of their development and self dependency. The Bible says, ” the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” No wonder why 70% of the Indians are still shitting on railway tracks and on public roads.

    • Mmahapatra 12

      Who said anything about Syrian Christians? We are talking history here, and projecting myth as history.

    • RM

      You are right about Christians. They work hard, ensure their kids study and earn a decent livelihood as integrated citizens of India. Unlike some religions that have ensured that their people remain uneducated because that way they can use them as tools for their own divisive ends. They also do not identify themselves as Indians and side with anyone of their religion from any other country who tries to create trouble in India.

      Every minority in this country has done well for themselves (except one) due to education and hard work. Even the Census reveals that minorities are the most educated people in India.

      The problem high caste Hindus have with Christians is that they educated the lower castes thus robbing them of their high class status. The Hindus persistently attacking Christians are high class Hindus. They blame them for the situation they are in today. The lower caste Hindu’s who form the majority of the Hindu population in India, will rather trust a Christian than a high class Hindu due to the centuries of oppression meted out to them by the high castes. The arrival of Christian missionaries saw the progress and education of the lower castes. So the author of this article and all the other supporters can rant and wail till the end of the world. But they will never get their old status back. The lower castes have moved on. They dont identify with you. They don’t have your narrow vision of Hindutva. They will define what this country will be. It is because of them that this country is “secular”. Because under the Hindu fold, their situation was worse than that of dogs. They remember well and will remember long.

      A proud lower caste Hindu

  • Suvi Nadakuzhackal

    All religions have a lot of mythology in them. The myth about Ramasethu and the hue and cry over Karunanidhi’s assertion is well know to us all. Sai Baba’s fraud magic acts were exposed by many people like Sanal Edamaruku. but, the religious people are not willing to understand or even to listen to these facts/arguments/possibilities at all.

  • agath

    RM – Tell me one good thing the Christians aka the missionaries in India have done without expecting converts in return. Don’t just blabber here without knowing the details. The missionaries came here with a mission and that is to “convert” this nation. This was publicly stated by the Pope too in 1999. There are over 2.5 lakh people working through missionaries relentlessly to convert the masses, especially the ignorant Hindus. Almost the entire fishing community in India are Christians right now. In order to feed the poor why do you need to covert them? Will they not be able to digest the food that you provide them if they continue to be Hindus? Answer this question first before posting non-sense. You cannot cheat people in this forum as you do with the poor Hindus elsewhere.

    • RM

      Agath,

      The “poor Hindus” existed way before the missionaries came. If you hadn’t treated them like shit, would they look at the missionaries to remove them from the social bondage they lived in? Answer this smarty pants!

      I agree with your point about conversion. I would even support you if you want them to reconvert BUT it will HAVE to be reconversion to higher caste. Deal?

      You see smarty pants, people have wised up to folks like you. Now suck your wounded ego elsewhere.

      • agath

        RM – I pity you a lot. Looks like you’ve never read the history of India at all. You are seeing India from the eyes of either the Europeans or the British. You guys are never used to see it from the eyes of Indians themselves. Have you ever read Dharampal’s “The Beautiful Tree”? He explains the education system in India during the late 18th century until the British destroyed them. He provides evidence from Britishers themselves, collected from various archives in Libraries in London. These records and the village panchayat records clearly show that most of the students studying in schools at that time were from the so called low caste. The stories about the higher castes dominating the low caste and prevented them from studying are all bull shit and concocted stories by missionaries and British officials. A time will come when Indians will know the true history of India. When the U.K declassifies more documents of East India company in the 17th and 18th centuries, more truth will come out.

        So better have the facts in hand before talking non-sense.

        • RM

          Let the lower castes attest to your comment. My lower caste friends are hugely amused with your comment when I showed it to them.

          Why don’t you tell a lower caste person to rent a house from a Brahmin. Let’s see what happens. Dude, I live in the real world unlike you. Grow up and smell the coffee.

          • agath

            RM – There is no point arguing with you anymore. You simply just don’t understand platform on which castes prevailed in India. We had castes in India, but there was no casteism. There were no lower, upper or backward castes as we term them today. We just had different castes based on profession and dharma, that’s all. Casteism was an invention of the the British and the missionaries. I do agree there are caste related problems today which needs to be addressed and resolved, but at the same time every Indian must know that the root cause of all these issues stem from foreign invasions only, and not because of deficiencies in the system. Varnashrama is one of the finest system of living created by humans. Today it has been denigrated so much to the extent that people start protesting the moment one utters the very word varna.

            Having said the above, I can pretty much conclude that you are totally ignorant about history of ancient India. Have you ever read the works of authors (like N S Rajaram) in this own blog? I’m sure you’ve not. This is why I keep saying that you must read before you write. Looking at every problem at the granular level is not going to help you in anyway. Take a holistic approach when addressing an issue.

            I’ve given my final opinion and I’ll stop my discussion with you right here. Pls grow up!!!

        • Sohan

          Blame game, the easiest game in the town to play! Lay it on the British or better yet on the Muslims. They were the first, before the British!

          Caste by profession only, why not. In the good old golden days gone by, there must have been people who enjoyed cleaning stalls and carrying human waste to the dumps! Could be they wanted to seek forgiveness for the sins and the bad deeds done in the past, or they just were lazy and preferred to do the no brainer job.

          God might have recruited them for doing special chore no one else would do. Carrying human waste is a job for bravest of the braves.

          “These records and the village panchayat records clearly show that most of the students studying in schools at that time were from the so called low caste.” Means castes did exist – why then talk about low caste.

          If most of the students studying in schools were from low caste, what the upper caste school age population was doing? Also, did the so called low caste students migrated to become the upper caste or preferred to be the low caste.

          The great Valmiki is still known to have belonged to the lower caste. Never got upper caste makeup!

          • agath

            Sohan – you are no better than RM in your understanding about India. You are viewing India from the eyes of the British. This clearly shows you are a product of Macualay education system. Castes are the basic entities of our social construct and there is nothing wrong with it. We had castes but no casteism. This setup worked perfectly fine until a group of devils called “missionaries” entered our country. The British took a great deal of help from them in understanding our society. Then they restructured it with the “christian” mindset called the Western Universalism, which was completely contradictory to our existing way of life at that time. In so doing, they categorized the castes with vested interests, which was the root cause of all evils that later happened. Do you think our historians are fools by simply putting the blame on the British without any factual evidence? If you do you are simply insulting them. A man like dharampal sacrificed his entire life for bringing out the true history of this country. He traveled thousands of villages and spent countless hours in the British libraries in London to collect historical facts about the history of India. Before trying to criticize anyone first do your research, else you’ll look like an idiot.

    • Sohan

      “A man like dharampal sacrificed his entire life for bringing out the true history of this country. He traveled thousands of villages and spent countless hours in the British libraries in London to collect historical facts about the history of India,” Therefore he must be right! No questions about it.

      Caste is no problem, the system worked fine. Nothing wrong to have people carry human waste and be segregated! So long no one screams why negate the system.

      Slavery had been the favored system atleast in the US, and worked well. Monarchy still is practiced in the world. Dictatorship, Army rules. These all system work fine until some foreign power creates problem!

      • agath

        Sohan – You are again proving yourself as an idiot. Who said caste induced slavery? Historians never make judgements by looking at things in a granular way, rather they take a holistic approach. Have you ever tried to find out who pushed the Dalits into night soil cleaning? Don’t have a prejudiced thought process when looking at history. Look at it with an open mind. Poverty (deliberately induced by the British) is what pushed the dalits or the lower caste into night soil cleaning. Do you know that today a majority of sulabh’s toilet cleaning employees constitute the so called higher caste Brahmins? How stupid would it be if I now say that the so called lower caste is oppressing the so called higher caste (Brahmins)? That’s how stupid it is when you mentioned about caste slavery.

        And by the way who asked to you believe Dharampal just because he sacrificed his entire life for his historical work? Refute him after studying his works. Did you ever read his book, “The Beautiful Tree”. Read it first and refute it point by point and then we’ll start a healthy discussion. Don’t just try to vomit what you learnt in your marxian school. Our education system is completely abducted by the missionaries and marxists. We are all victims of the Macualay system of education. Look at what this moron said in the British parliament in the 18th century.

        “We must at present do our best to form a class of persons Indian in blood and colour but English in tastes, in opinion, in morals, and in intellect,”

        Do you still want to believe the marxian and christian propaganda about our country? Grow up man. You are seeing India as just a bunch of problems, but I see India as a beautiful nation with some problems inside. There is a lot of difference between the two.

        • Sohan

          Didn’t your mama teach you that calling names is not the way to win arguments!

          Historians are humans. They have pride and prejudices, and above all they write with perspectives! Don’t like what they write, they are the foreigners, influenced by the foreign culture and education.
          “Extreme poverty is what pushed the dalits or the lower caste into night soil cleaning.” So there were Dalits or the lower caste people before the British invaded India. And would you please identify the people who used to clean the night soil before the British. SELF CLEANING, may be!

          • agath

            Sohan – I think you’ll never put your brains to use. The term “Dalit” was a recent invention. It did not exist before. There is absolutely no records of this term anywhere in either our ancient or recent scriptures. This is why I asked you to learn our un-distorted history first. Our civilization was predominantly agricultural. The rural setup did not have toilet facilities and would excrete predominantly in the agricultural lands, which was in turn used as manure for agriculture. Hence exclusive cleaning was not required. This methodology is still used in some of the villages. If you don’t believe me, go and visit them for yourself.

            Again, remember that India had castes (Jaathis) and not casteism before the British came. The term caste itself came from Portuguese term “casta”. We only had Jaathis, which is different from caste. Go and research yourself for the difference between the two. The British were the ones who branded jaathis as lower, upper, middle etc for their administrative and colonial purposes. This is one of the most significant factors that attributed to later caste related issues that happened.

            Unless you come out of your western mindset you’d continue to ask such stupid questions.

          • Sohan

            Stupid, idiotic are not very polite word. Belong to the street smart people vocabulary than to the educated class.

            Predominantly is not 100%. Where did the urban population and especially women purge themselves! Would not have been possible to sprint to the nearest open space with water to clean!

            Was there a system? Automatic, self regulated, or Hired help!

            The British introduced the night soil men. They also created the Indian urbanites. There definitely would have been no dalits, night soil men, or whatever name you call had there been no urban population!

          • agath

            Sohan – Again you are making a mistake. Who termed certain people as Urban, rural etc? Before the Brits came, almost entire India was rural, agricultural based and highly decentralized. Show me one scripture or document that mentions the word “dalit” and then we’ll debate from that angle.

            Now coming to night soil cleaning, as I already mentioned, it’s purely out of poverty that a certain set of people had to undertake such jobs. Now let’s see how it all started. First of all the population of India was definitely not as high as it is now, three hundred years ago. Moreover since people were following a decentralized living night soil cleaning was not a mammoth task at all. Most of the population used to excrete in either far off places like unused waste lands or in farm lands, which would eventually become manure for the paddy fields. (highly sophisticated methods of toiletry using drainage systems and all did exist in ancient India but was not predominant). Even today a lot of villages in India use this approach. Now, when the Brits came they obviously could not follow this method of excretion, and hence they had to develop their own sanitation and drainage system, for which they extensively used (exploited) us. This is how night soil cleaning became a full time job. The Brits cleverly used a certain set of people for this job since most of them were not willing to do. I’m not trying to say that these people were treated properly by us during later stages, but i’m just urging people to look at the issue from a more broader perspective instead of blaming the caste system for everything. This is why I keep saying that people like you should study India with an open mindset and not with prejudiced ones that were taught to us by the West or west influenced scholars with vested interests.

  • ayeshuratnam

    According to Syrian Christian tradition St. Thomas came to Kerala in 52 A.D., and converted some Nambudiri Brahmin families such as Kalli, Kaliankara, Sankarapuri, Madapur, Vyampalli, Muttedal, Kottakara, Panakamattom, and Pakalomattom . These names of Nambudiri families are fictitious and cannot be traced in any of the records of Nambudiri Brahmins. Besides, this tradition evolved at a much later date and was not a contemporary account. These fictional names are being maintained to legitimize fanciful claims. Syrian Christian tradition and many other legends found in ancient Christian songs like the Veeradian Pattu, Thomma Parvom, and Margom Kali Pattu, claim conversion of Nambudiri Brahmins by St. Thomas. But all these songs originated after more than thousand years or much later, and not composed in the first century when St.Thomas was in Kerala. Conflicting dates, AD 1601 and AD 1792, assigned to these works give room for suspicion about their authenticity. Even the composer’s name, Ramban Thomas, alleged to be a Nambudiri Brahmin, is highly doubtful as there was no such person in Nambudiri records. All the songs are anachronistic without any bearing on Ist century socio-political events. In all probability these songs would have been composed in the seventeenth or early part of eighteenth century after the arrival of colonial powers. The notable document concerning St Thomas is the ‘Acta Thoma’ attributed to a Syrian named Bardasanes , an apocryphal work bearing transparent signs of its Gnostic origin. It was preserved with some modifications in Greek and in Syriac. It also tells about the missionary activities of St. Thomas and his martyrdom. But this work too was of a later origin and different dates are given by scholars, AD 220 or AD 400.
    According to another Syrian Christian tradition four Nambudiri families of Niranam, Tayyil, Pattamukkil, Manki and Madathilen of Thiruvalla were converted by St.Thomas. But there is no historical evidence about these Nambudiri settlements in Thiruvalla in the 1st century AD. It is probable that some fugitive St Thomas Christians of Mylapore or lower caste converts would have used these fabricated names with the false claim they were Nambudiri converts to avoid persecution by caste-Hindus. Apart from persecution, for being Christians, there was also forced labour (oozhiyam) by Brahmins and Nairs and lower castes had to work in the farms of the landed gentry. So there was a mass exodus of Christians to remote, forest areas to escape oppression of Nairs. Thiruvalla being an isolated forest area was occupied by fugitive Christians. None of the Nambudiri records has also any reference to the existence of converted Nambudiri settlements in Thiruvalla in the 1st century AD or the conversion of their community members. Even in the Brahmin tradition found in Keralolpatti there is no reference at all to the conversion of Nambudiris, although it tells about a certain ‘Thomman,’ an opponent of all Vedas’, came to Malabar and ‘converted many prominent people in the land, including the reigning king, Bana Perumal. But Keralolpatti, embellished with myths and legends, was a compilation of 18th century, after the comong of colonial powers, to bolster the superiority and authority of Brahmins in Kerala and not a contemporary narration. It is likely that the Mylapore migrants and local converts, mostly untouchables such as Ezhavas and other outcastes, who moved into Thiruvalla from other areas coined new family names or adopted locality names of Niranam, Tayyil, Pattamukil, Manki and Madathilen and claimed for themselves superior status to hide their past. It must be borne in mind that the converted untouchables and slaves were fleeing from their original places to other areas to escape persecution and punishment by higher caste Hindus. With no Nambudiri or Nayar available for conversion in Thiruvalla, Chengannur, Mavelikara and nearby regions, the emergence of a large Syrian population in that region is a solid proof of new settlements. The claim for the existence of Nambudiri Christian settlements in Thiruvalla was a mixture of fable, hearsay and calculated false propaganda which has made even foreign writers think that it was a fact of history. It is a stark reality that it was due to large scale conversion of untouchables, especially Ezhavas that Christian settlements arose in those areas. Logan points out that the Nambudhiri settlements were mostly in the Calicut, Ernad, Walluvanad and Ponnani taluks of Malabar, and in the Cochin territory in North Travancore. No Nambudiri family of pure birth had settled to the south of the Kollam River in the 1st century AD. Francis Day and Samuel Mateer also affirm that the Travancore Rajas have “in vain tried every means in their power to induce them to reside there.” It is quite improbable, therefore, that Nambudiri settlements existed in Thiruvalla area when St. Thomas or at a later period when Thomas of Cana came to Kerala. Missionary records give us an idea of how new settlements of lower caste and untouchable Christians came into existence in different places and how those converts were tutored to assume for themselves the status of higher castes just to escape persecution by upper caste Hindus. As S.N. Sadasivan, an eminent research scholar who has gone through missionary records, points out: “From the beginning it was the practice of the converts to leave their native village and settle down in a place normally few miles away or as a distant station as possible and to take up avocations other than that of their caste for intelligible reasons. It has enabled them to conceal their past, sever from their close relations and claim a status better than that of their unconverted brethren still struggling to stand up against their neighbouring caste-Hindus, in the new environment they had chosen. The first missionary who understood this social value of this mobility and anonymity was Joseph Peet who always for the safety of his converts from slave caste sent them to other places where they could make new claims and build up a better image for themselves.”
    Syrian Christians were not allowed to use public roads. A concrete evidence of this prohibition is “the Thiruvalla Edict” issued by dewan V. Krishna Rao. An Ezhava convert by name Cherian was abused and intimidated by Nairs for not observing the distance of pollution on the public road near a temple. Local Syrian Christian priests took up the matter of Cheriyan, with the Tahsildar and explained to him that a converted Ezhava was not bound down by the custom of his caste since he had already renounced it and become a Syrian Christian. The tahsildar referred the matter to the dewan, V. Krishna Rao who issued a directive which was known as “the Thiruvalla Edict,” As per the Edict that “though an Ezhava becomes a Christian, he must never cease to be an Ezhava and therefore “Cherian and other converts must not be allowed to pass through the public highway by the temple.”

    • http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com/ Namaachi

      The reference to Alexandrian theologian Pantaenus as a visitor to India is incorrect. Today historians agree that he only reached Arabia Felix, corresponding to Arabia on the Red Sea.

      As Ishwar Sharan points out numerous times in his work, the term ‘India’ in ancient geographies is used as a synonym for Asia. It does not refer to the modern sub-continent we know as India. See Ishwar Sharan at http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com where he has collected a whole library of references to the St. Thomas legend.

      India in ancient times included Egypt and Ethiopia and extended all the way east to Japan. Therefore the term cannot be a specific reference to modern India.

      Cosmas Indicopleustes, the Nestorian merchant and traveller from Alexandria visited the Malabar Coast in 522 CE. He is the first person to leave an authentic record stating that there were Syrian Christians living in Malabar and Ceylon. Cosmas is the author of the book ‘Christian Topography’.

  • ayeshuratnam

    Ishwar Saran does not know the difference between mythological, legendary religion and historical, real religion. Even the birth places of mythological gods have not been located. Romila Thapar says that birth dates of Ram and Krishna were fixed on mere assumption only in the later part of the 20 th century imitating the Christmas celebration for Jesus. It is a historical fact that St. Thomas came to India A strong evidence to establish the presence of St. Thomas in India is the discovery of the coins of Gondopharnes in Taxila and it can be inferred from the coins that he must have reigned about A.D.50 which corroborates with the date of St Thomas’ visit to his palace. There is also the evidence of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription, and from the date shown in the inscription, it is conjectured that Gondopharnes probably annexed Parthia and brought Gandhara under his control. Gondopharnes’ empire included Afghanistan, Baluchistan, the Punjab and Sind. Adherents of several religions lived together in Gandhara and the Punjab. Thomas was serving these areas before proceeding to Mylapore.
    While St. Thomas was working among the poor in Mylapore, Thiruvalluavar was profoundly influenced by him. St. Thomas taught the boys and girls not merely Christianity, but secular subjects which he had learnt when he was a student in a Jewish school in Jerusalem. That is why Thiruvalluvar gives importance in his poems to education. Thiruvalluvar has not mentioned anything about Ram or Krishna. He speaks about love and kindness which he learnt from Thomas.
    In Kerala Shankaracharya, who was born 600 years after the birth of Jesus, was influenced by St. Thomas ideas and ideals. There was a flourishing Christian community in and around of Kaladi and Shankara was in close touch with his Christian neigbours. Hinduisn at that time was a religion of idolatry, rituals and superstition. Shankara ridiculed the innumerable idols and stressed on one god, which he learnt from Thomas Christians. Monotheism of Shankara was taken from the Christian belief of ‘one eternal god.’

    • agath

      ayeshuratnam – Fantastic comments. You should be given the fiction story teller of the year award. Why don’t you claim that St. Thomas was born before Jesus Christ or better even before Buddha as that would be more appropriate for Christian liars like you? The Thiruvalluvar story was a concocted one by pseudo scholar idiots like Deivanayagam. This is a clear cut plan to isolate Thirukkural from Hinduism first and make it secular (temporarily), then when the appropriate time comes, associate it with Christianity. This is their clear-cut strategy and they are using help from morons from the DMK. A time will come when all these idiotic theories will be thrown out. Christianity is equivalent to insanity. It’s almost dead in Europe and America. It will die without a trace in India too.

      • ayeshuratnam

        Christianity asks Christians to follow strictly the Ten Commandments. People who do not want to follow these Commandments and who want to live in immorality – gay, lesbian etc., – cannot find Christianity attractive. Hindu swamis and gurus, Maharishi, Sai Baba and yoga gurus, have started a New Age religion where sexual debauchery is allowed. Victorian morality of Christianity was eroded by the entry of New Age hypocritical, money-swindling and sex-maniac gurus. So in the West some people out of curiosity join the new religion. But after sometime, when they taste the real color of Hinduism, they throw it into garbage. That’s what is happening in all cities, according to media reports. That does not mean Christianity is dwindling. Since Church pastors have also come under the influence of Modernism, good Christians have arranged large halls for prayer and meditation. TV channels telecast the huge attendance of Christians and the halls are jam-packed. Church attendance has dwindled but attendance in Halls has multiplied. Wonder of wonders, there has been a mass revival of Christianity in African countries. South Korea which was once a Buddhist country is now emerging as highly populated Christian country. If there is revival of Christianity in Halls in Europe and America, Communist China is bewildered to notice incredible the growth of Christianity, in spite of restrictions. According to Chinese media, Churches in Beijing are overflowing and people have to stand in the church compound as all the seats are occupied inside the church. Just click to know the growth of Christianity in Communist China.

        • agath

          I think you simply do not understand the difference between a guru, rishi, muni, sanyasi and grahastha. Learn them first. Unlike christians, Hindus don’t go by one book. They go by “dharma” which differs based on several factors. You are talking about maniac gurus in Hinduism. Do you want me to show pedophile priests in christianity? Atleast some gurus are shown to have sex with adults, but pedophiles are far worse. Neither you nor the stupid media will talk about them, but anything done by Hindus will be sensationalized, because of extreme tolerance in them. Almost every political meeting of either Sonia Gandhi or Advani too are jam packed, which doesn’t mean that all those people support them. That’s how I treat your christian prayer halls. Christianity simply does not have the capability to survive in a modern scientific world. It does not have answers to questions the people pose in their day to day life, which is why people are starting to throw it out. The only reason that Christianity is spreading in Africa and Asia is because of enormous money that flows in, not because of religious affinity. Go and look at the atrocities caused by missionaries in Europe and Asia in the past couple of centuries and then you’ll get a proper picture of what happened. There is a popular african saying which goes like this:

          “The white missionaries came. They gave us the Bible, but they took our land”

          This is what is the essence of Christianity. Both Islam and Christianity are political entities with the mask of a religion and they cannot co-exist with others and will always try to show up their barbaric mindset wherever they go.

          • ayeshuratnam

            To agath
            It is ridiculous to claim that primitive and mythological Hinduism has knowledge of science. It is all copied and interpolated from Western (Christian) scientific achievements. Every student of history knows that the Vedic society was a rural, primitive and a pastoral nomadic society. Vedic prayers were addressed to no less than thirty three named gods. The Vedic Aryans prayed to these gods for long life, good fortune, heroic sons, good harvest, rain and victory over the Indians who were called dasas, mlechas and chandalas. How foolish it is to say that the Vedas tell us about quantum physics. Quantum mechanics is a general mathematical theory dealing with the interactions of matter and radiation in terms of observable quantities only (as the intensities and frequencies of spectral lines.) Just because there are references to stars or the moon or the sun we should not jump to the conclusion that the primitive people of the Vedas knew cosmology. There is a verse in the Rig Veda; “We are all assembled in the night when the sky shows the full moon and the stars twinkle; we are in a happy mood drinking soma liquor. O! Indra come and share the soma drink.” Like the jungle tribes the rural Aryans were expressing their curiosity or interest when they saw the full moon. Even we spend a few seconds admiring the splendor of the full moon hanging in the blue sky. But Hindu chauvinists interpret the insipid reference to the moon by the unsophisticated remarks of the Aryans as their advanced knowledge in astrology. Astrophysics is the scientific study of the physical and chemical structure of the stars, planets etc., Those primitive Aryans were more interested in cultivating the soil, domesticating cattle and killing the enemy – the natives of India. But it is a cunning trick of Gurus and Swamis to quote astrophysics to give a modern look to the primitive Vedas. In the same manner, the yogis use modern medical and psychological terms to cheat the westerners. They even steal ideas from Freud and Jung to lure the westerners to the primitive yoga. The Vedas tell us about the sacrifice of cows and how the Aryan settlers ate beef and drank the intoxicating liquor, soma and prayers to their gods to destroy the enemies (native Indians). Max Mueller carefully went through every word in the Rig Veda while translating it, and has come to the conclusion: “There are large portions in it which have hardly any connection with religion at all, but they are interesting all the same as relics of antiquity …” How foolish it is to say that the Vedas came from
            gods!

          • agath

            Wow!!! I can only laugh at your ignorance. Looks like you learnt the vedas from the Pope, and that’s probably why you are interpreting it the same way that you do with the Bible. Go and check the bible for the idiotic stories mentioned there before commenting about the Vedas. In fact one of the prime factors christianity was rejected in the west is just because of the stupidity in the Bible. It clearly shows that you are a victim of Western Universalism. You people think that science belongs to the West and there is only one way to study science. Yoga is a science by itself and it can’t be proven, it has to be experienced to be understood. Better do that instead of writing non-sense. Also you must be a moron to still believe the Aryan-invasion theory. It was long disproved both scientifically and archaeologically.

            Many of the major milestones in Math were stolen from Kerala by the Jesuits and were taken to Europe way back in the 16th century. Some of them include calculus, geometry etc. In fact the word geormetry itself came from the sanskrit words “jya miti”. Better spend sometime reading about ancient India and her achievements before talking non-sense. Your quotations and interpretations of the Vedas (probably from missionaries and marxists) clearly shows how ignorant and immature you are with the Vedas. In my opinion you are not even qualified to utter the word “Vedas”. First read them in detail and come back for a healthy discussion. Don’t just google for some stupid interpretations by copy pasting them here and waste our precious time.

          • ayeshuratnam

            Agath has to laugh at his own ignorance. How foolish is his utterance that Jesuits stole maths from Kerala. In a scientifically advanced Christian Europe, they do not want a low, inferior, scrubby standard of maths from India.

            Look at the experience of a foreign tourist even in 21st century.Even a tiny village in any country of Europe will not present such a ghastly spectacle. I’m giving from a paper extract:

            The train platform at New Delhi central station is about as wretched a place as you’d want to find yourself in the wee hours of the morning. It’s nearly 2 a.m. which, here in India, means that the 8 p.m. overnight to Varanasi should depart in about an hour. Karen and I have staked out a small patch of concrete and dirt that is almost entirely free of rotting garbage and human waste. We’ve gone a full three minutes without anyone trying to beg/sell/pilfer anything, but the Shih Tzu-sized rats are getting bolder. One of them is actually leafing through my Lonely Planet book while another is laying waste to a bag of trail mix from our day pack. I am exhausted and sweaty and cultivating a rash of mysterious origins.
            Look, I’m not a sissy. I have trudged through more third-world shitholes than most people have ever heard of, and, by and large, I’ve loved every minute of it. I’ve survived Cambodian bedbugs, bowel-trampling food poison in Petra and a 400-pound Bahamian customs officer with a serious crush on me. And I dig it; I like a challenge.
            But right now, I’m spent. There are parts of this experience that I just cannot square with my normally forgiving moral compass. Yes, there’s “cultural distinctiveness,” but there’s also “bereft of civilized decency.” Surely there has to be a point where some foreign cultural norm clashes unforgivably with one’s personal core beliefs. I mean, how far can you open your mind before your brain falls out?
            How am I supposed to see beauty when I am so continually confronted with the backward and barbaric?
            The four guys at the end of the train platform aren’t helping my attitude even a little. They are staring us down and giggling like a gaggle of Japanese schoolgirls. They’ve been studying us and plotting their approach for about 20 minutes now. When they finally make their play, they each shove someone else to the front of the pack as they approach, physically nominating a spokesman.
            The skinny one in the middle summons the courage to ask what they’ve clearly been discussing at length:
            Skinny Guy: “Are you a love marriage?”
            I’ll be honest and say that I was appalled the first time I flipped open an Indian newspaper and found the “Matrimonials,” an entire section of the paper dedicated to families shilling their daughters in hopes of finding a suitable man. It’s a personal ad, of sorts, with height, weight, education and family status included and there are various sub-categories when the family is looking for a groom of a particular social status or occupation.
            Families often go into unrecoverable debt to provide a dowry large enough to attract a higher status groom. Assuming a proper dowry and provided the astrologer sees nothing bad in the commingling of signs, the match is made.
            Divorce is legal, but rare. A divorced woman is unlikely to find good employment and a family that takes in a divorced female is thought to bring shame into the house.
            The truly tragic lot, however, belongs to widows. A widow is an omen of bad fortune—surely anyone whose husband has died must carry terrible karma—and is often not welcome at family functions or celebrations. Many family members will refuse to touch her or take meals in her presence. It’s not uncommon for widowed women to turn to prostitution or begging to survive.
            In rare instances, a widow may choose “sati,” the ritual of joining your dead husband’s funeral pyre and burning to death. The practice was banned in 1987 but it still happens, and women who choose sati are, in some circles, glorified and worshiped.
            This is what I am thinking as this tittering flock of strangers hovers in my personal space waiting for a reply.
            “Yes,” I tell him, “we’re a love marriage.”
            And they giggle and nod and whisper something indecipherable to each other.
            Hours later, as we settle into our mercifully cool and quiet train compartment, we meet Claire and Megan. They’re British medical students who, like us, are wrapping up a glorious and torturous month of traveling around India.
            Next stop for Claire is Washington, D.C., where she’s landed a highly coveted spot training in an American ER. Brimming with excitement, she tells me that there’s nowhere else for a medical student to get such frequent, hands-on experience with gunshot wounds. Apparently, nowhere else in the world do people shoot each other on such a regular basis.
            Late that night, crammed into a single berth, Karen and I are drifting off to the rhythmic clatter of the train. I’m staring at the ceiling and wondering what Claire will think of my country once she’s come and gone. It is equal parts amazing and imperfect, visionary and dysfunctional.
            I’m hoping Claire will be good at seeing the beauty instead of the backward and barbaric.

          • agath

            You are probably one of the most ignorant uneducated person that I’ve interacted with. You are saying that the Bible is most printed book in the west since it is the most revered book in the West. Ha Ha Ha what a joke. There are Harry potter books that too are printed in much larger nos, that doesn’t mean they are the most respected or revered. Don’t try to fool yourself. Have you forgotten the history? Or probably you never read it. It was the same Barbarian Bible believers who burnt alive people who emphasized that the “World is spherical”. In fact the West advanced itself in Science and technology only after throwing the Bible out. America is already coming out of the prison of Christianity. I’ve personally envisioned the closing of a lot of churches there. Europe is already sinking financially and is expected to be Islamized in just 50 years from now. That’s the main reason that Vatican is shifting it’s focus to Asia and Africa. Who knows one day the pope may start claiming that Jesus was born in Ayodhya or Dwarka to gain more converts, as they are doing with saint Thiruvalluvar right now.

            The Jesuits did steal a lot from India. We have ample evidence to prove the same. Check this link and educate yourself

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070813091457.htm

            Like what the jesuits did in the 16th century, the 21st century jesuits in Kerala are stealing everything from Hinduism, in the name of inculturalization. This is how they inculturated the “Christmas Tree” which was a pagan religious practice in Europe (http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-christmas-trees).

            You again don’t even know how to make comparisons between countries. What does cleanliness have to do with religion? India’s poverty is mainly attributed to enormous loot by the European colonists and partly attributed to the greedy politicians. The padmanabha swamy temple treasure is just one example to prove how rich was ancient India and her kings. The British and Islamic rulers looted almost everything they could leading to India’s current poverty levels.

            You christians better try to save Europe from Islamization and the financial crisis which is what is most needed right now rather than spreading Christianity and reading the dead and the inappropriate verses of the Bible. Amen (a copy of AUM :-) )

          • ayeshuratnam

            Hi! Agath!!! The more you write the more your ignorance, nay your damn foolishness is exposed. You say that before the British came, India was clean. Look what Babur says: ““Hindustan is a country that has few pleasures to recommend it. The people are not handsome. They have no idea of charms of friendly society, of frankly mixing together, or a familiar intercourse. They have no genius, no comprehension of mind, no politeness of manner, no kindness or fellow-feeling, no ingenuity or mechanical invention in planning or executing their handicraft works, no skill or knowledge in design or architecture.” J.S. Mill was a scholar and a sociologist. He wanted to help India. After closely studying the nature of Indians, he set himself the task of ascertaining the true state in the scale of the civilization of India… After scrutinizing India’s arts, manufactures, literature, religion and laws, he concluded that the Hindus did not possess, and never had possessed, ‘a high state of civilization’. They were rather a ‘rude’ people who had made ‘but a few of the earlier steps in the progress of civilization’. There existed in India, he wrote, a ‘hideous state of society’, inferior even to that of the European feudal age. Bound down to despotism and to ‘a system of priestcraft, built upon the most enormous and tormenting superstition that ever harassed and degraded any portion of mankind,’ the Hindus had become ‘the most enslaved portion of human race. The earliest British travelers even in Mughal times had observed the distinctive characteristics of Islam and what they then called the ‘Gentoo’ faith. Ralph Fitch who visited Akbar in 1584 wrote of the Hindus: “They be the greatest idolaters that I ever sawe.’ His described the nature of the idols and declared they ‘were blacke and evill favoured, their mouths monstrous, their ears glided, and full of jewels.’ Even before the arrival of the British, travelers from other countries have also described the nature of Hindu faith and Hindu gods and goddesses represented in monstrous and frightening idols. Marco Polo, Alberuni and other medieval Muslim writers and travelers have also painted a startling picture of the mode of worship, demonic idols inside temples and gruesome religious practices. The most conspicuous aspect of the observations of foreign visitors is that there is absolutely no reference to Hindu philosophy or science. Hinduism was mere rituals in temples and customs such as burning of widows, infanticide and widespread murder of lower castes for violation of caste rules. It was only in the 18th century that William Jones, Colebroke of Asiatic society and others produced fake Sanskrit manuscripts to get knighthood for themselves for their so-called “discoveries in India.” They created a new religion which evolved into modern Hinduism.
            V.S.Naipaul, the Nobel laureate, has given the correct answer for people like you who make false claims that there was highly advanced science and surgery in ancient India. V.S.Naipaul, in his book, An Area of Darkness, says: “It is well that Indians are unable to look at their country directly, for the distress they would see would drive them mad. And it is well that they have no sense of history, for how then would they be able to continue to squat amid their ruins, and which Indian would be able to read the history of his country for the last thousand years without anger and pain? It is better to retreat into fantasy and fatalism, to trust to the stars in which the fortunes of all are written – there are lectures in astrology in some universities – and to regard the progress of the rest of the world with the tired tolerance of one who has been through it all before. The aero plane was known to ancient India, and the telephone, and the atom bomb: there is evidence in the Indian epics. Surgery was highly developed in ancient India: here, in an important national newspaper, is the text of a lecture proving it. Indian shipbuilding was the wonder of the world… Naipaul stresses the fantasy of Indians. If there were eminent scientists in ancient India, and if there were airplanes, why is it bullock carts are still to be seen today in every city in India? Naipaul gives a common street scene on page 215. “A child was squatting in the mud of the street; the hairless, pink-skinned dog waited for the excrement. The child, big-bellied, rose; the dog ate.”Eighteenth century India was squalid. It invited conquest. But not in the Indian eyes: before the British came, as every Indian will tell you, India was rich, on the brink of an industrial breakthrough.” pp.212-213.
            Agath, come out of your fantasy and see the reality. Your repeated posts rob my precious time. If I do not reply you will think I’ve accepted your stupidity. So I’ve taken the trouble of replying, in spite of my busy schedule.

          • agath

            Looks like you could not counter my other arguments on Vedas and Maths in ancient India, which is probably why you switched topics. You are showing me a quotation from a novel about India. You must be awarded a Nobel prize for doing such things. V.S. Naipaul is not a historian and doesn’t have the credibility to write about the History of our country. You may read it like a novel, but cannot make conclusions based on it. You don’t even know this simple thing. Not sure how you even passed your high school. Babar is another person alien to this nation and ruled us as slaves. How could you expect him to write well about us. It’s usual for a muslims to criticize Hindus as idolaters. They are doing it even now, so what? We’ll continue to worship billions of Gods, what’s your bloody problem? If you want to worship only one God, we’re okay with the same and we provide you the space to do so. It’s only the idiotic monotheists like you who cannot co-exist peacefully with others. Almost 90% of the human massacres of the past two millenia had been caused by monotheists like you who could not tolerate polytheism. You guys don’t even know how to co-exist in a multi-cultural society and will always look for converts. Such cowards are you.

            If you ever have the intention, read the following book by Angus Maddison, a British Economist who clearly says that India was the richest nation in the World until the Brits came. This is not his view by the way. This book was a result of a 20 year research in Economics conducted by he and his team.

            The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective

            You are looking at India from the eyes of the people who enslaved us, but I’m looking at it from the perspective of Indians themselves.

            Henceforth when you do a google search (I know you only know to do that :-) ), spend some time, do some research, above all put your brains to work (if you have one) and then counter me.

            I’ll counter anyone who deceives my country no matter how busy I am.

          • ayeshuratnam

            Hi! Agath
            Wow! you are now harping on Vedic Mathematics.
            Here is the answer from Prof. S.G. Dani.
            Important words, like other important things, are often vulnerable to misuse by elements inclined to derive undeserved benefits from their glory.
            Practitioners of many a trade have found it advantageous to use the adjective `scientific’, even when their basic tenets and methods are quite inconsistent with the scientific method. `Vedic’ is one such word, the use of which promises dividends, especially in the context of the peculiar weakness of the popular mind in India. Also, the users seldom seem to be called upon to justify themselves on account of the pious way such claims tend to be approached.
            The so called `Vedic Mathematics’ (VM for short) is a case in point. It is well-acknowledged that, as being practised, it is based on a book of Swami Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji, who was the Shankaracharya at Puri from 1925 until his passing away in 1960.
            As commonly understood and implicitly assumed, the adjective `Vedic’ means being from the `Vedas’ or the civilisation around their time. While there are variations on the estimates of the period involved, by any reckoning they are at least 2500 years old. In what sense do the contents of the book belong there? Neither has Tirthaji nor have the proteges provided any evidence or clue in this respect that a rational mind can appreciate.
            The book has a preface grandiosely titled `A Descriptive Prefatory Note on the Astounding Wonders of Ancient Indian Mathematics’. All one finds there is a lot of raving and ranting, followed by a vague statement to the effect that `exceedingly tough mathematical problems’ can be easily solved with the help of some `sutras’ in the Parishishta (Appendix) of the Atharvaveda. There is no substantiation or elaboration concerning their being genuinely from the Vedas.
            It cannot be that it did not occur to Tirthaji to include such details in the preface or elsewhere in the book.
            He was, in fact, confronted by Professor K.S. Shukla, a doyen in the studies on ancient Indian mathematics, to show the sutras, to which Tirthaji is said to have replied that they are not in any standard Parishishta, but only in his `own Parishishta to the Atharvaveda’!
            The book also contains a short biographical sketch and an account of the genesis of the work written by Ms. Manjula Trivedi, a disciple of Tirthaji. She mentions that the `Revered Guruji used to say that he reconstructed the 16 mathematical formulae from the Atharvaveda after assiduous Tapas for about eight years in the forests surrounding Sringeri’. They were not found in any version of the Vedas. They were `reconstructed’.
            Contrary to what is made out, `Vedic Mathematics’ is no `system’ of solving problems in mathematics or even just arithmetic. It is only an assortment of tricks, based on simple algebraic principles. It is thoroughly lacking in coherence or harmony.
            As one goes along the text of the book, one is introduced to various tricks to solve certain special problems, and while doing so Tirthaji gives names to some of the operations. `Ekadhikena Purvena’, which means `by one more than the previous one’, is an operation which involves something or the other to be done with something or the other that happens to be `previous’ in one or the other sense. Lo and behold: you have a sutra for the problem. Mind you, the string of words does not by itself enable you to solve the problem and in most instances even the operation it connotes needs to be supplemented by several others. These one has to learn. It only enables you remember something of the operation.
            In the style of how matters proceed in the book, `hold the bucket’ can be said to be a sutra for milking a cow! From a mathematical point of view, the sutras of VM are of little value. To some extent, they serve as memory aids to the practitioners. Other than that, their sole role has been as props to the false pretense of antiquity.
            The main positive contribution of Tirthaji’s book lies in highlighting some tricks with which certain specific calculations can be done faster. In this sense, it is comparable to Trachtenberg’s methods of `high speed’ computation.
            The main drawback of such methods is that they are very problem- specific and depend heavily on identifying special features which may be exploited to attack the problems.
            Secondly, speed in computing mentally, which is the sole feature to which they contribute to some extent, has become largely redundant in the computer age.
            (The writer is a Senior Professor at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai.)

          • NS RAJARAM

            Vedic Mathematics in the book by the name is a modern creation. It is incorrect to say that they are just tricks without proofs or method. This was supplied by Dr. Bhanu Murthi, a very distinguished mathematician.

            We have wandered far from the topic. I am amzed though that while fighting over the dubious St Thomas, people are ignoring the far more important find of the Gospel of Judas! Why? People don’t want to face uncomfortable truths!

          • RM

            @ayeshuratnam That was awesome. There are many Indians who believe this myth that the British broke (the kingdoms now called) India’s back. Eye opener of a post mate! Looking for more from you. Do you blog. Please share link. I am as India as they come. It pains me to see the squalor we live in a and accept as natural. Sometimes I despair, but unlike many people before I have decided to stick it out and try and bring some to my immediate surroundings.

          • RM

            @ayeshuratnam, atheism is the leading movement in Europe. During Christmas 2010, atheists was the majority group of people overtaking Christians. There was a time in Europe when religion held sway. It was called the “Dark Ages”. Europe progressed in science and technology after it rejected the authority of the church.

          • ayeshuratnam

            Dear RM
            Atheism was a byproduct of the intellectual progress in the Christian West. Even Jesus attacked priests and Temples. That is why He was crucified. Secular Humanism is another byproduct of Christianity, for Jesus asked people to serve the needy and love others instead of praying or going to Temples. He defied religious rules by curing lepers on the Sabbath Day.

            You are wrong when you say that ‘Dark ages’ the Church controlled Europe. Early scholars gave the name “Dark Ages” to the period in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. During this period, barbarian Goths, Vandals, and Huns swept down on Europe from the north and east. They destroyed many fine buildings and works of art that had existed during Roman times. During the Dark Ages, knowledge survived only in monasteries, and there were very few schools. Schools were conducted by monks of the monasteries. Many of the old arts and crafts were lost bu the invasion of Barbarians. . This is why the time was called the “Dark Ages.”But the monasteries remained as centers of learning and culture.
            Evolutionists often falsely accuse Christians of believing in a flat Earth. But neither history nor modern scholarship supports the claim that Christians ever widely believed that the Earth was flat. And the Bible doesn’t teach it
            In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.
            A literal translation of Job 26:10 is “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.” A spherical earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22 -“the circle of the earth.” The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and such information was well known to Christians right from the beginning. Just because some foolish Popes made conflicting statements, that could not be considered as the belief of Christians who were also scientists and intellectuals. Earth’s spherical shape was, of course, also understood by Christopher Columbus, a Christian navigator who took the Bible during his voyages.
            It is also interesting to note that there are 16 scriptures which refer to God stretching out the heavens. These are remarkable confirmations that the Bible is true, as we know today that the heavens are rapidly expanding.
            “When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate

          • RM

            Sorry dude, there was no man called Jesus. And the incidents you mention are all fiction made up by Bible writers. I am not going to
            argue about this anymore.

          • ayeshuratnam

            Dude, You cannot argue because you cannot destroy historical facts. Your ignorance of ‘Dark Ages’ is patent from your own writing.

          • agath

            RM – There is nothing wrong in worshiping a person irrespective of the fact if he lived or not. There are certain things that can be done based purely upon belief and we should respect them. How do you know that you were born to your parents? Are you not believing that you were born to them? Or are you doing DNA tests every day to reveal that fact? Even if you do so, how do you know that that test is correct? I have no issues with Christians worshiping Jesus Christ regardless of the fact he lived or not. It’s only their crookedness in distorting the History of India that I strongly condemn. If you study the World history, you’ll come to know that they’ve followed the same pattern of things (like distorting history to their advantage ) wherever they went, against the Pagans there. An excellent recent example is the war between Hutus and Tutsi tribal groups in Africa which was out and out a missionary plan to convert them, and they did succeed considerably. Another most recent example is the Sri Lankan war between the native lankans and the Tamils. Everything is finished there, and the only pending part is to form a separate nation for Tamils (and they are tirelessly working for the same right now) and once that’s done they can start converting. Only fools like ayeshuratnam continue to believe that conversions happen out of will, but the fact is wherever Christianity went, there was bloodshed either directly or indirectly. In my opinion Christianity is more a political entity than a religion. It’s the missionary that’s spoiling Christianity as a whole. I would never say that every Christian is part of this political game, but for sure they are being imprisoned without their knowledge.

          • RM

            @agath, there is nothing wrong in worshiping

            something that does not exist . But it is wrong

            to create religions out of this non entity and

            converts others to your delusion using trickery

            and bribery, forcing kids to worship the same

            delusion, creating moral and social laws that

            dictate to the followers you have converted to

            your illusory God’s religion, how they should

            live and love repudiating the natural forces that

            created this world and its inhabitants. I agree

            that Christianity is an invasive religion, wiping

            out nearly half of the worlds ethnic cultures.

            But the very followers of this religion are

            pioneering “atheism” through rational thought and

            inquiry and leaving religon by the drives. This

            is a hearteneing thing. Everything balance itself
            out in the end. Most of my Catholic friends are

            atheists who are still in the fold of the church

            for admission of their children to catholic

            institutions and for the use of cemetery after

            death. It is like a club with its privileges. So

            is the case of other castes and religions. Remove

            these privileges given to communities and you

            will see more atheists coming out of the closet

            in India than any where in the world. However I

            must also say this… our youth have been

            enslaved by our family system for years. They

            were forced to bow before elders and follow

            archaic beliefs. They have reached a point of

            rebelliousness and any attempt to “indianise”

            them by forcing “indian culture” will be viewed

            by hostility and will be counter productive to

            Hindus. This will ultimately extinguish Hinduism

            and India’s various cultures. And this is where

            Christianity scores, because it looks so modern

            but is actually a regressive belief. So my

            message is this, if you want to preserve

            Hinduism, then throw off the yoke of semetic-

            morality and go back to the days when hinduism

            was a liberal religion. When girls and boys could

            mingle freely and sex was not a bad word.

        • Idealistic

          Mr. Ratnam, you are an Indian. A south Indian from your name. You were a Hindu once. Got converted long ago. Or worse, your ancestors were fucked by some westerner. Lets not go to that. So, be realistic. Don’t went out your inferiority complex here. Live and let live.

        • Ajnani

          Don’t get angry and Don’t lie are not there in ten commandments. Mr Ratnam the Church attendance in Europe and USA are dwindling. What is the true colour of Hinduism Mr Ratnam

        • crap_diem

          Ayeshuratnam: You speak like a true follower of a semetic religion and the semetic morality. Your disgust of sex and man-woman relationship which is a hallmark of both the Abrahaminic religions is evident. Both Xianity and Islam are uncomfortable with the fundamentals of human nature viz the urge to procreate. I pity you. Following these foreign ideologies will only lead you astray. Every living thing on this earth is born, procreates and dies. How they do it is their business. Deal with it. This is the information age. No religion will survive this as followers begin to question. People want evidence and not homilies. Today’s generation will not be brain washed for long, and the rise in Atheists is proof of that. Humanity doesnt need religion. Humanity needs education, knowledge and the pursuit of science and a morality that is created by them for themselves. You sounds like those desperate Christians who seek to comfort themselves by saying that Churches are over flowing in China and people form the West are throwing Hinduism in the garbage can. Just shows your ignorance. People will experiment and discard what does not work for them. Just the way the world is discarding Christianity. You have to make peace with the fact that reason will overpower your religion and all other religions in this age

      • RM

        @Agath and @Ayushratham the crux of the matter here that neither Jesus nor Mohammad nor Ram or Sita existed. All are creation of fiction writers. People have been fighting over which of these fictional characters is more superior for centuries. Look around you. You live on a planet that took millions of years to cool and the first life appeared another million years later. It took more millions of years for evolution to bring the living beings that inhabit earth today. So stop fighting whose fairy is real and whose is a myth and start living in a world governed by natural laws. The party starts the day you are born and gets over the day you die.

    • NS RAJARAM

      Monotheism is not the same as Advaita whose roots (as also of Dvaita) can be traced to the Upanishads and ultimately to the Veda itself.

      Semitic religions of Islam and Christianity draw a clear line between Man and God. Their ‘union’ as in Advaita would be abhorrent to both. For political reasons, the late President K.R. Narayanan once stated (before a largely Muslim audience) that Shankara borrowed Advaita, which he too confused with monotheism, from Prophet Mohammed!

      Going by all this Shankara’s most important work BRAHMASUTRA-BHASHYA is a blend of Islam and Christianity. Yet Shankara said: “Scripture is no word of God but a compilation of knowledge based on gnana (reflection) and karma (experience).”

      This means neither the Bible nor the Quran is the word of God but only human creations.

      What Ayeshuratnam is doing is regurgiating crude missionary propaganda. All religions are full of ritual and superstitions, Christianity and Islam included. Christianity and Islam more than Hinduism are inflexible in their beliefs which are all superstitions. That is why they are hostile to science.

      As far as monotheism is concerned, I consider it a horrible superstition– God as Dictator like Hitler or Stalin. God has been invoked to shed more blood than any other cause. Just look at the so-called Holy Land– where people have shed blood fighting over ‘One God’ than in any part of the world. It is the most un-Holy Land.

      People should have the freedom to choose whom and how they worship– not have a God-substitute (as Ram Swarup called them) impose it on them in the name of One God. One God can only be a male dictator. That is why Bertrand Russel called Communism a “Christian heresy,” with Marx as the Father and Stalin as the Only Son.

      So it is no coincidence that Christianity and Communism are both popular in Kerala.

      • ayeshuratnam

        At the time of the coming of the British, Hindus worshipped three hundred and thirty millions of gods. Original Hinduism also had orgiastic-ecstatic and emotional elements, together with the co-related magical practices. The Atharva Veda confirms magical performances. Tantra magic followed by Brahmins was a form of orgiastic-ecstasy containing five nukara, known as purubhishaka (holy circles). They are the five indulgences beginning with the letter ‘M’:- madiya (alcohol), mamsa (meat), matsya (fish), maithura (sexual intercourse), mudra (finger gestures, presumably debauched dance). The most important aspect of the Hindu ritual was to booze-up by drinking alcohol which was bound up with sexual orgies. This was followed by the bloody sacrifice beside the concluding meal, mainly roasted beef and alcohol. The main purpose of this ritual (orgy) was to get alcohol-ecstasy which will induce them to get magical power. Hindu Scriptures say that he who has attained possession of gods, bhairava or vira , has magical powers. He is united with the feminine creative power of Sakti, which later appears under the names Lakshmi, Durga, Devi, Kali, Sana etc., represented by a naked woman eating meat and drinking alcohol (bhairavi or nayika). Even today this ritual in a modified form is performed in some temples in Bengal and Kerala.
        Dvaita, advaita and other religious thoughts came into existence only after the coming of the British. Ancient Hindu scriptures were entirely mnemonic. It was sacrilegious to write down the scriptures or to produce manuscripts. In the absence of printing, everything was kept in the memory of Brahmin priests. We know from practical experience that memory often fails. After the establishment of the Asiatic Society, William Jones, Colebrook, Wilson and other scholars made these Brahmins recite from memory and produced Sanskrit manuscripts. Jones wanted to be knighted and he even produced fake manuscripts with the help of Brahmin priests. That is how religio-philosophical thought emerged in Hinduism. Why these thoughts were not demonstrated or propagated during the Mughal rule or even in the Hindu Vijayanagar Empire?As Max Weber observes that all methodologies of apathetic ectasy, technologies of contemplation were based on the same theoretical principle the Quakers formulated, that ‘God only speaks in the soul when the creature is silent.’ Weber also points out that the spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola sprang from his methodical emotional asceticism. This accounts for the birth of meditation and yoga in the place of orgiastic-ecstatic and tantra rituals. Probably Shankara evolved his advaita concept from what he learnt from St. Thomas Christians living in his native village. The Bible speaks about one God only and it is totally against idol worship. As poet Rawley wrote:
        “Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
        In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
        Most blessed, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
        Almighty, victorious, Thy great name we praise.”
        These ideas were in the mind of Shankara when he evolved his advaita philosophy and his attack on idolatry. North Indian Brahmins called him a ‘Disguised Buddhist,’ for they were not aware of Christians in Kerala. In actual reality, Shankara was a ‘disguised Christian.’

        • agath

          Having seen your comments I just couldn’t control my laughter. I know you Christians will go to any extent in distorting this nation’s history. Why don’t you also add that India never existed before the birth of Jesus Christ and it was Jesus who created this country. I think that’s probably the only thing you didn’t say yet, so better go ahead and propagate that message too. Only fools and morons will believe in what you said.

          I’d sincerely request Mr. NSR to not waste his time in refuting such baseless comments. He’d be insulting himself if he did.

        • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

          Vatican library is the largest repository of religious scriptures including Hinduism espcially. Reason: Max Muller effect. Read, know and then malpulate to bash Hindus non stop. Hindus hardly know English, brain wash the Englicised convent educated if they were not already brain washed in their 15 yera curiculum. Typical catholic apologism and intellectual terrorism. Well done.

    • Padmapani

      Most funny! So, this is what Christians in India think? Do you know Samskrit? Did you read any of Sankara’s works? Semetic “monotheism” is not about the One God, it is about “my god is the real god”. This “love” thing is another myth that is peddled by Missionaries. If Jesus preached “love” why did Europeans butcher so many millions in North/South Americas, Australia, Asia and so on…?! No wonder, Vatican took a few days to agree to “mutual-respect” in a UN document, and later clarified that despite mutual-respect, Christianity is the only true religion!

      • Sohan

        Why ask, do you know Samskrit? Samskrit is a medium and in the modern age books are translated in more than one medium.

        Sankara, who is he? Hindus don’t have a Pope. Sankara’s works are not God’s word by any means.

        Beliefs and LOGIC are no friend to each other!

        • agath

          Even Jesus christ was not God. But the Christians believe him to be God or Son of God. Why don’t you ask this to the Christians?

          Yes, Hindus never had a pope and will never have a pope either. That’s because Hinduism does not dictate like what Christianity or Islam does. I don’t know where from we got the stupid ideology like “Love Is God”, most probably from christianity. If love is God, then hatred should also be God right? This is where Hinduism differs from other religions. In Christianity and Islam “God is One”, but in Hinduism “God is Everything”. First try to understand the subtle differences between these two and then debate.

        • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

          Very excited. Hindus better not have a Pope. Otherwise it will get as filthy as Vatican. May e worst, who knows?

    • Sangamuthu

      No where in Tirukural , Valluvar has given credit to St Thomas. Vallvars texts indicate that he was a very humble man. A humble man would have given credit to St Thomas . There is no mention of St Thomas at all in Tirukural. Adhi Bhagwan is there , Kadavul is and Iraivan is there ( which is used in Saiva Siddhantam right from time immemorial from the BC time of Pandyas and Cholas in the classical Tamil language).

    • lal

      HI,pls be well informed before you speak. i am from Kerala and have read a lot about Shakaracharya.Don’t tell plain senseless lies. One point is enough for me to dismiss your claims.Shankara who was an extraordinary brilliant lad learnt all hindu sacred texts with in the age of 8. this ‘one eternal god’ is present in vedas itself.

    • Ex Christian now Atheist

      Jesus never existed. It is universally acknowledged now.

    • http://opsudrania.blogspot.com/ Tejpal

      Vatican apologist. Sorry.

  • Sohan

    To agath on night soil disposal:
    So all in ancient India used open fields to purge themselves, even the kings and the Queens, and the ministers!

    Funny, the great ancient minds never thought that one day the population explosion would occur and the purging in the fields become impossible!

    BTW: you come across more high strung, close minded, poor in logical thinking, loud mouth ranter! With friends like you, Hindus need no enemy!

    • agath

      Sohan – I think you’ll never learn to put your brains to work. The kings and kingdoms are completely different. They did have toiletry and drainage systems and that would have had night soil cleaners. But who said that they were ill treated? Do you have evidence to prove the same? Don’t we have night soil cleaners in the U.S today? Only difference is these people use sophisticated technology to do the cleaning work, without even touching the gutter. What were the other civilizations doing a thousand years ago for night soil cleaning? Were they using machines for the same? Think my friend. Did they not use people for cleaning? Similarly India also used people for night soil cleaners. I agree these people were abused but why blame the caste for the same? If you tell me that abusing these people was wrong, then I’m with you. But if you put the blame on caste for the same, I’ll continue to bash you. Like I said in the beginning, you people have been programmed to think by the Brits to brand caste as “evil”. Come out of that mindset and think afresh, only then you’ll understand the benefits of caste system. Do one thing if you can. Stop asking questions with prejudice and do some research on caste and varna system. Then come back and ask your questions, i’ll open heartedly debate with you.

      Finally Hinduism definitely needs open minded thinkers like me, and not British stooges like you. To make Hinduism survive we don’t have to do anything except stop christians and muslims from converting people. They are the real culprits. In my opinion, the moment caste is completely destroyed, this nation will be in the hands of muslims and christians. It is caste system that’s delaying their strategy which is why they are pouring enormous money in making false propaganda against it.

  • agath

    ayeshuratnam – You still have not refuted my other comments, but started pounding upon Vedic Maths. I believe no one can better provide a better explanation for this than Mr. Rajaram himself and he did it. I don’t want to provide any additional comments there.

    I strongly vouch again that ancient India was far superior in Mathematics compared to third world countries at that time, else how could they build such massive temples and other structure without access to any modern modern machinery? Go and take a look at sulba sutras, and the works of Brahmagupta, Aryabhatta etc. If you have some time just browse through the pages of these great mathematicians in Wikipedia, then you’ll come to know what I’m saying. The Jesuits did export (stole) a whole lot of mathematical stuff to Europe and this is clearly proven. In fact the sulba sutras contain the now called pythagoras theorem much before pythagoras had invented it. These are all very well documented and not my imagination. Go, research and educate yourself before writing non-sense here.

    Now, don’t ask me stupid questions like “If the Indians were so superior why didn’t they invent machines and devices like how the Europeans did it?” We never believed in productivity or industrialization like the Europeans did. We concentrated more on self realization or upheaval. This is why we did not convert much of the science that we knew into technology, by producing devices or gadgets. Even the things found in sulba sutras were mostly used for formation of panchangas, astrology etc and also for creating vedic altairs which was in turn used for conducting yaagas and yagnas.

    Better think before you write. Ancient India had her own set of issues as any other country, but definitely not as inferior as it was taught to people like you.

  • agath

    @RM – You just have not understood the fundamentals of Hinduism which is why you so ignorant in a lot of aspects of it. Bowing before elders is not crime, it’s a sign of respect. If bowing is wrong, then shaking hands or saying hello is wrong too. You don’t feel “shaking hands” is forced upon you, because you got so used to that method of interacting and got absorbed into that system. I can still show you a lot of people who prefer to bow and say “Namaskar” while they feel shaking hands as being forced upon them. People like you have totally come out of the Hindu way of life which is why you trivialize everything about it.

    Do you really think life is just about sex or physical relationship? If so, why do you hate incest relationship (assuming you do)? Have you not heard about “motherhood” at all? Seems like you see men and women just biologically. This is purely a western point of view. People in East never classified humans as men/women. They see them as being either feminine or masculine. One can clearly understand this from the concept of Ardhanareeswara. Hinduism has always embraced feminity, this is why we have abundant temples for female gods in this country. Unlike the West, physical body takes the least precedence in this country, and is used just for survival. These are certain subtle differences that you need to understand, in order to appreciate Hinduism. Throw out your Western mindset and think afresh. West has always taught us that “i’m the only one who is right and i’m always right”, this directly descends from Christianity. Though the West has thrown Christianity out as a religion, it still holds the Christian ideology intact, and that’s what is being reflected in modern science.

    Atheists are another set of morons. I don’t understand how different they are from traditional theists. The traditional theists believe in “God”, and the atheists believe in “Science”, that’s the only difference. Neither they knew anything about God, nor you (atheists) know anything about science. Tell me one thing. I assume you believe in Einstein’s theory of relativity or the famous equation “E=MC2″. Can you prove this for me? Or do you know all aspects of this proof? Until you know this, you are just a believer. How do you know your belief is right? What if someone intelligent than Einsteins disproves this equation in the near future? Did this not happen to Newton a while ago, when Einstein pooh poohed a lot of his perception about “time”? Now what do you say about believers of Newton right now? In my personal opinion atheists are like people stranded in a hanging rope. They don’t know which side to keep their foot on, so they’ve now decided to stick on to science. This nation were full of seekers and not believers. Religion did not groom by using books in this country, it groomed by experience. This is why sciences like yoga were created. This culture strongly acknowledged the fact that there are a million ways to reach God, unlike the West which continues to believe in the stupid “one God” theory. That’s one of the main reasons, that so many religions could flourish here.

    You mentioned about religions enslaving humans. Aren’t the corporate institutions doing the same right now? Are you not expected to behave, dress, eat and live in a certain way that these modern dictators define? Are you allowed the complete freedom in today’s so called free and liberal world? Can you dress the way like and go to the office or a public place?

    You have a long way to go my friend. Hinduism never enslaved people. It only expects one to follow certain principles and ethics based on one’s own dharma, and that dharma differs from place to place, community to community and religion to religion. I repeat, if you ever want to understand true Hinduism, throw off the “Western Universalism” from your mind and think afresh, upon which everything in Hinduism will start making sense.

    • RM

      YAWN!

      • agath

        BURP!!!

  • http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com/ Namaachi

    For a full history and analysis of the St. Thomas legend go to Ishwar Sharan’s website http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com. Ishwar Sharan is the recognised authority on St. Thomas and has written a book, The Myth of St. Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple, that is now in three editions. He covers all aspects of the legend including its communal and political implications for Indians. Reading his work will expose many of the false arguments made below by various commentators.

  • gajanan

    All the three Acharyyas Sankara, Madhava and Ramanuja never claimed that it is their original work. In fact in Dakshinamurthi sloka Sankara atiributes all to the work of Rishis and Munis. Sankaras philosophy is re-ediditing of Yoga Vashista which Rishi Vashishta instructs Rama when he is asked to go to the forest. Vashista clearly says that Rama should experience an exile. He explains the delusions of the human mind It is in Yoga Vashista that the term ” Maya” comes first., which has been praised by Erwin Schrodinger himself in his masterpiece What is life Here is an excerpt

    Thus wrote Schrodinger in http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf
    see this chapter Epilogue On Determinism and Free Will. The following is verbatim from Schrodingers masterpiece which you will find in the rooms of all modern biologists.

    “In Christian terminology to say: ‘Hence I am God Almighty’ sounds both blasphemous and lunatic. But please disregard these connotations for the moment and consider whether the above inference is not the closest a biologist can get to proving also their God and immortality at one stroke. In itself, the insight is not new. The earliest records to my knowledge date back some 2,500 years or more. From the early great Upanishads the recognition ATHMAN = BRAHMAN upheld in (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight”

    The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts. Again, the mystics of many centuries, independently, yet in perfect harmony with each other (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas) have described, each of them, the unique experience of his or her life in terms that can be condensed in the phrase: DEUS FACTUS SUM (I have become God). To Western ideology the thought has remained a stranger, in spite of Schopenhauer and others who stood for it and in spite of those true lovers who, as they look into each other’s eyes, become aware that their thought and their joy are numerically one -not merely similar or identical; but they, as a rule, are emotionally too busy to indulge in clear
    thinking, which respect they very much resemble the mystic. Allow me a few further comments.Consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Even in the pathological cases of split consciousness or double personality the two persons alternate, they are never manifest simultaneously. In a dream we do perform several characters at the same time, but not indiscriminately: we are one of them; in him we act and speak directly, while we often eagerly await answer or response of another person, unaware of the fact that it is we who control his movements and his speech just as much as our own. How does the idea of plurality (so emphatically opposed by the Upanishad
    writers) arise at all? Consciousness finds itself intimately connected with, and dependent on, the physical state of a limited region of matter, the body. (Consider the changes of mind during the development of the body, at puberty, ageing,dotage, etc., or consider the effects of fever intoxication, narcosis, lesion of the brain and so on.) Now there is a great plurality of similar bodies. Hence the pluralization of consciousnesses or minds seems a very
    suggestive hypothesis. Probably all simple,ingenuous people, as well as the great majority
    of Western philosophers, have accepted it. leads almost immediately to the invention of
    souls, as many as there are bodies, and to the question whether they are mortal as the body is or whether they are immortal and capable of existing by themselves. The former alternative is distasteful while the latter frankly forgets, ignores or disowns the fact upon which the plurality hypothesis rests. Much sillier questions have been asked: Do animals also have souls? It has even been questioned whether women, or only men, have souls. Such consequences, even if only tentative, must make us suspicious of the plurality hypothesis, which is common to all official Western creeds. Are we not inclining to much greater nonsense, if in discarding their gross superstitions we retain their naive idea of
    plurality of souls, but ‘remedy’ it by declaring the souls to be perishable, to be annihilated with the respective bodies? The only possible alternative is simply to keep to the immediate experience that consciousness is a singular of less is never which the plural is unknown; that there is only one thing and even in the that what seems to be a plurality is merely a series of different personality aspects of this one thing, produced by a deception (the Indian MAJA); the same illusion is produced in a gallery of mirrors, and in the same way Gaurisankar and Mt Everest turned out to be the same peak seen from different valleys”.

    The Indian Maja is Maya ( in German it is written as MAJA).

    In the Ramayan itself Rishi Ashtavakra explains the philosophy of nonattachemnt to King Janaka http://sanskritdocuments.org/all_pdf/ashteng.pdf translated by John Richards which also deals with Maya and non attachment. This is as complex as Yoga Vasihta. One should visit the Kauai Adheenam in Hawaii and see their web site http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/ for online books. They have explained very well all the aspects of Sanatan Dharma with a balanced approach.

  • gajanan

    http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=5211

    The Dangers of Monotheism in the Age of Globalization
    by Jean-Pierre Lehmann
    | Thursday, March 30, 2006

  • Prem

    its really waste of talking and arguing with Hindu dogs. They are called as idol worshipers. They dont know how their religion started. Their gods have animal faces and animal bodies. But they dont accept their gods are animals. Christians have all the proofs that Jesus existed. what about hindus ramayan. Did rama born in a hut or palace? and a palace must very huge. but their king rama born in such small area. we call Jesus is king of all because he is son of god. he came to earth to save humanity. he did miracles and my holy book ‘BIBLE’ have prophecies. Some of them have been already been proved. and even these idol worshipers have already been predicted in BIBLE. let them criticize the king. they’ll get their punishment before they die which they deserve. Our god takes care of everyone.

    • Rational

      Prem, there is no evidence of any of these religious heads/Gods. It had been solidly proven that Jesus never existed. The Jesus story is a myth, so is Ram, Sita, Mo etc. Look up middle east history, every middle east God was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, were visited by three kings, were killed etc. ( example Thor)The Jesus story was similarly created. I am a Christian and know what I am talking about. Hinduism is perhaps the only ideology that comes close to the truth, that we are created by laws of nature. Hinduism got corrupted by the Brahmins and developed to what it is today. This post and all the other ravings by Internet Hindus are the ravings of these upper castes to restore the social status quo, when they were revered as god. They dont understand that the majority of Hindus have still not forgotten the treatment meted out to them in the past and don’t subscribe to their Hindutva agenda. So chill and stop calling Hindu’s dogs. You are only demeaning yourself. Think instead of believing the people who converted you. Believe when you have substantial proof in your hands.

    • Lal

      Hi, your addressing of all Hindus require special mention.But not interested in calling you like wise because i can’t stoop to that level. your whole message typically represents your mentality, that is intolerance. and blind belief.Firstly i suggest , u understand firmly the core of idol worship from learned hindu scholars..But i am afraid you will ever make an attempt at it.Even if you are thouroughly informed of the concept of idol worship,you will still be firm on your first stance because your basic mentality is intolerance to other religions and blind belief. I am not going briefly into what you have put forward, but am forced to say one thing. It is exactly people like you who are the reasons to make others cautious of ‘the dangers in built in any semitic religion growing in numbers in a country where they are the current minority’.

  • Sam Cooper

    To debunk this issue one has to ask which books were used by this Thomas chap while in India in 52CE. One needs to understand that the current bible only came about around much, much later. The very first books, as per biblical scholars, were the Pauline epistles (70CE) followed by the 4 synoptic gospels i.e. Mark, Matthew, Luke & John. This is very different from what one is taught in Sunday school so Christians will disagree. Even if Thomas was in India he would have been part of a Gnostic community which had more in common with Hindu & Buddhist philosophy than current christian dogma.
    Also the hypothesis that Buddhissm influnced christianity has been around for 200 yeras or so. Read the book by Professor emeritus Michael Lockwood, who has taught philosophy at Madras Christian College. There are stories in the Buddhist scripture that are mirrored in the gospels word for word.

  • allen

    I AM VERY SORRY TO READ THIS STUPID ARTICLE.there are christians in kerala(india).who call themself as st thomas christians. i am a st thomas orthodox christians. only 40% of people followed catholic faith . rest are called as malankara syrian orthodox . there is proof that there was christians in the 1st centuary ad in kerela.in ad90-100 jewish came to kerala to settle and there are records that they had seen christinans (people who wore cross in there neck).latter when marco polo visited kerala he has nooted in his book that he had seen christians .

    i am a loat about saint thomas christians in india . any body can contact me at allen007john@gmail.com

  • anon

    Go here for information about the Bible and Christianity:

    http://www.evilbible.com

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

  • anon

    Go here for information about the Bible and Christianity:

    www evilbible com

    www jesusneverexisted com

  • anon

    Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says this Thomas never came to India. I would say probably about 80 percent of Christians in India can be easily reconverted to Hinduism if you just go and knock on their door.

    If you think this Thomas is bogus Jesus Christ is an even bigger hoax.

    http://www.evilbible.comhttp://www.jesusneverexisted.com

  • sangeeth

    I think one should read the book “ The Holy Blood and the
    Holy Grail” . Jesus was the king of Jews. His intention was freedom for Israel
    from Roman occupation. He was of Nazarene sect and had close contact with
    Essenes and Pharisees. Romans crucified him because he claimed he was king of
    Jews. He did not die in crucifixion is clear and he was seen by people even for
    40 days after crucifixion. If the last supper accounts are true then Jesus knew
    of his capture in advance. He could have easily planted someone to take his
    place. It could be that Judas was in fact an accomplice rather than a traitor
    as he was the one who identified Jesus for the Roman soldiers.

    If one thinks logically then it is clear that Jesus will expect
    his disciples to go all over the world
    and find the lost tribes of Israel and ask them to unite and fight Romans. It was impossible to dislodge Romans as Jesus
    was not getting support from all Jews. Sadducees in fact conspired against him.
    So the immediate disciples and the initial converts were all Jews and remained Jews.

    Christianity as we know today is something different from
    what is mentioned above. It is a cult that believes that Jesus was divine. In
    fact all Kings were considered to be divine and son of God in those ancient
    times but Romans doctored the story to suit their hegemonic aspirations. Roman
    empire still thrives simply on Christian doctrine.

    The story of St Thomas is relevant because he would not have
    come to Kerala unless Jews lived here. There were Jews here who were the sea
    traders in those times. He converted them and they were called Nasranis which
    basically meant Nazarenes. These were the Jews who cannot be considered Christians
    as per the Christian concept. Christianity probably came much later probably with
    the Portuguese to Kerala. The Name Nasrani is the proof that St Thomas was in
    Kerala and converted people here. Name Nasrani could not have come for no other
    reason. No wonder they consider
    themselves as the original than the roman Christians. I saw lot of comments
    asking for proofs on St Thomas. Well I found lot of convincing proofs for
    myself. May be those who ask for proofs
    can seek; they may find it.

    To me Christianity has very little to do with apostles or
    even with Jesus. If that is the case, holocaust would not have happened. Same
    is the case of Muslims. They consider themselves descendants of Abraham but
    will kill any and every Jew on sight. Abraham last I heard was a Jew.

    The biggest genocides and massacres in the known history are
    all because of Islam and Christianity. The commonality of these cults is known:
    Constantine Christianity and Mohammed Islam. Both formed as brotherhood for
    capturing political power and used armies to consolidate and prosper. That is why they are just cults and not
    religions.

  • Amith

    For those who doubt the arrival of St.Thomas in Kerala. the following link may prove helpful.

    http://amithshaju.blogspot.com/2013/07/stthomas-and-church-of-kerala.html

  • nennenns

    My favorite line: “There is even a Mount of St. Thomas in Mylapore in Chennai with a tomb that is supposed to contain his martyred remains. But the problem is there are several such memorials spread across Persia, Acre (Turkey) and a few other places dating to different times, all laying claim to be the place where Apostle Thomas was martyred and buried!”

    Any time history is competing to have a piece of a person, that person definitely existed and definitely went where they hope to claim him as “their own.” Curious.. Persia is on the path to India too.

  • Raju Rajan

    In Kerala history there is absolutely no evidence of Nambudhiris or Jews being converted by St. Thomas or at a later stage by missionaries coming from Persia. Instead of scientifically proving (not manipulated ) genetic link between Jews or Nambudhiris with Syrian Christians, people like George Menachery are making ridiculous references to colour of dress, building model, customs, rituals and social habits to claim Brahmin and Jewish ancestry. Along with these preposterous comparisons, manipulated DNA tests are being conducted to nullify authentic records of conversion of untouchables by saintly and trustworthy CMS missionaries such as Norton, Fenn, Baker, Bailey, Peet, Dawson and others Hawksworth says that he converted slaves, and how can DNA test show that the descendant of that slave has Jewish blood? The descendants of slaves in Alappuzha, Mallappally, Pallom, Mavelikara, Chengannur are now a apart of mainstream Syrian Christian community. Missionaries from Persia who came to Kerala in pre-colonial days were not Jews or Assyrians, but Persians. It is not sufficiently realized by racist writers that the immense majority of the members of the Nestorian Church living east of the Tigris were of Persian, and not Semitic or Aramean birth and extraction. Many were born of Christian parents who originally belonged to the Zoroastrian faith, and many others were only themselves converts from Zoroastrianism. So it is sheer absurdity to claim Jewish or Assyrian genealogy through Persians who periodically visited Kerala.

    Another argument of these racists is that tying of thali is a proof that Syrian Christians are descendants of Nambudhiris. But this claim is also not sustainable because untouchables such as Parayas, Pulayas, Mukkuvas, vannans and many others tie thali. Paul Roche gives this account of Paraya Catholic marriage: “The priest, though of higher caste, does not treat the Paraiya couple as untouchables. He blesses the couple and says Mass for them. The symbol of the wedding union is the thali. The thali is a gold medal on a yellow thin string. It is yellow because it is dyed with turmeric (Manjal). During Mass the priest blesses the thali and hands it over to the bridegroom who ties it around the neck of the bride. The priest also blesses two flower garlands and hands one each to the bridegroom and the bride who garland each other.” The fact that Syrian Christians follow Hindu rituals is a clear proof that they were converted from backward Hindu communities. Ezhava, Pulaya and Paraya Christians are having Hindu relatives of their own castes even after conversion and therefore they still retain more Hindu rituals and customs than Syrians who were also lower caste converts. Menachery, instead of pointing out Hindu rituals and manipulated DNA, should give clear evidence about the conversion of Nambudhiris or Jews — the locality of these Nambudhiris or Jews, the number of people converted, the year of conversion and , above all, the person or missionary who converted them. CMS missionaries’ diaries give a detailed account of the caste of the converted people and the date, place and year of conversion. Can Menachery produce such a record of Nambudhiri or Jewish conversion, instead of showing fake DNA or the white dress that even Paraya Pentecost people wear everywhere.

    Quite surprisingly, these racial writers also claim that Church built on the model of a Hindu temple is another proof for their Nambudhiri ancestry. But Paraya and Pulaya temples are also like Nair temples.Lamp, especially oil lamp, Kuthvilakku, is lighted on all important occasions of Parayas, and this practice is also prevalent in some Syrian houses. Church architecture was modeled on temple architecture because that was the prevalent pattern of buildings in Kerala at that time. Aishwarya has recently constructed a house in Mumbai in American style. Is it not foolish to claim American ancestry for her because of her American model house? What separates Syrian Christians from Nambudhiri Brahmin and links them to lower castes is their lifestyle and food habits. Syrian Christian settlements were seen on the coastal areas and thick jungles. But Nambudhiri settlements were inside villages, near temples and tanks. Syrian Christians like Parayas eat beef and pork. But Nambudhiris are vegetarians. Jews do not eat pork. Christian Jews in Israel and Europe do not eat pork. But for Syrians, pork is a favorite dish. In convents, sisters rear pigs to supply pork to Christians on important occasions such as Christmas, Easter and Anniversaries. Another important factor that separates Syrians from Brahmins is, Nambudhiris wear a sacred thread (poonool) which is conspicuously absent in Syrian Christians. Nairs followed matrinelial system but Syrian Christians like Parayas follow patrilineal system and their surnames are generally inherited from the father and property passes to the sons. To camouflage this, people like George Menacchery claim Nambudhiri and Jewish descent without realizing the cardinal fact that Syrian Christian population is greater than Nambudhiris and Jews. Some Syrians live in a fantasy world thinking St.Thomas converted Nambudhiris to claim ‘nobility status’ without realizing the historical fact that there were no Nambudhiris when St Thomas came in the Ist century A.D. There is also no reference to the conversion of Chera kings. Nairs were also not converted, for Kerala history has recorded that Nairs used Syrian Christians to do free labour (oozhiyam) in their farmlands. In Jewish records kept by Koder there is no reference to Christian Jews. Menachery has even quoted Kesavan Veluthat and M.G.S.Narayanan confirming the coming of Nambudiris to Kerala several centuries after the coming of St. Thomas. .And yet, a racist claim is propagated that five Brahmin families in Kodungalloor were converted to Christianity by St. Thomas in the first century, when there were no Brahmins at that time. .Another phony claim is that Nambudhiri Christians migrated to Kuravilangad, Angamaly, Pallipuram, Niranam etc.and founded Christian settlements. Probably at the time of persecution of Christians by one Manickavachagar some backward Christian converts would have fled from Kodungalloor to jungle areas. But how could Nambudhiri caste could be attached to those fugitives, when there is no record in Kerala history about Nambudhiri conversion or about the flight of some Nambudhiri families to jungle areas? Another laughable claim of Menachery is that Christianity is older than Hinduism in Kerala ignoring the fact that Hinduism in Kerala can be traced to the Indus Valley religion. Research studies suggest the possible relationship with Indus Valley Civilization during the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age. Rock engravings in the Edakkal Caves (in Wayanad) are thought to date from the early to late Neolithic eras around 5000 B.C. M.R. Raghava Varier of the Kerala state archaeology department identified a sign of “a man with jar cup” in the engravings, which is the most distinct motif of the Indus valley civilization. It is rank foolishness to claim that there was no religion in Kerala before the Nambudhiris came and introduced their religion. Nambudhiris did not destroy any god or goddess of Keralites. All the gods and goddesses of pre-Nambudhiri Kerala were declared various incarnations of Nambudhiri gods. Another racial and offensive argument of Menachery is to claim phony superiority status for untouchable Syrian converts along with Nambudhiris and Jews by referring to the similarities in (to quote his words)“ the customs and traditions of the Namboothiri Brahman, Jews and Syrian Christians in the matter of their attitude to pollution, untouchability, or the idea of “Clean and Unclean”.. It is only after the coming of the colonial powers that Christians were instructed to lead a clean and hygienic life. According to early Portuguese and British writers Syrian Christians were in a very pathetic condition when they first met them. Abbe J.A. Dubois, a missionary in Mysore, in his letter dated August 7, 1815, writes: “The Jesuits, on their first arrival in India, hearing of them, in one way or other converted the greatest part to the Catholic faith. Their liturgy is to this day in the Syrian language, and in the performance of their religious ceremonies they use this ancient dead tongue. There remains still among them large congregations, consisting of 70 or 80,000 Christians, of whom two-thirds are Catholics, and a third Nestorians. They are all designated under the contemptuous name of Nazarany, and held by the pagans in still greater contempt than the Christians of this part of the country. The Nairs chiefly keep them at a greatest distance, and they form a separate body in society.” (Dubois, Abbe J.A., Letters On The State of Christianity in India, New Delhi:Associated Publishing House, (1977),p.12).European missionaries trained Christians to live in cleanliness and to dress properly.

    Some decisions of the Synod of Diamper refer to the untidy lifestyle, superstition, and unhygienic environment of Christians.. .An eye witness account by Samuel Mateer when he visited Syrian Christian (not Protestant CMS Christians) settlements as narrated in his book, ‘Native Life in Travancore,’ is given below:

    The Syrians appear to be in the lowest condition in the

    northern and mountainous districts in Muvdttupulay direction….

    Between Cottayam and Trichoor, a distance of about 70 miles,

    a great field for Christian labour lies open, for which the

    Alwaye Itineracy has been established. At Mdvdttupulay

    and Todupulay there are large numbers of Syrians, poor, hard-

    working, and kind people, renting lands from the Nambiiri

    landlords, for which they pay four or five times the seed sown,

    and cultivating areca palms and the fruits, roots, and grains on

    which they live. They have no Scriptures or other books, and

    few schools. Nor is there a Sirkar District school at either of

    the two district towns just mentioned. The priests conduct

    service and go off to their houses ; sometimes indeed there is

    no one to hold worship in the churches. The surrounding

    population have very little idea as to what God the Syrians

    worship, or how

    The ignorance and spiritual darkness of these poor nominal

    Christians is very great. On a tour in that quarter not long

    ago to see the country, I very carefully and cautiously examined

    those whom I met, or stayed with, as to their knowledge of

    Christian truth. It was heart-rending to learn of the criminal

    indifference and negligence of the priests, and to find old men

    and young quite ignorant, not only of the Scriptures, which they

    never read nor hear read, but even as to who Jesus Christ

    was. ” I know nothing of it ” said an old man with whom I

    conversed. A youth with handsome open countenance could

    not tell what kind of person or character Jesus Christ was —

    whether a Brahman, a government officer, a carpenter, or what !

    He “could not say.” One could hardly credit that such

    Ignorance was possible ; but a native friend, who accompanied

    me, also repeated the queries in various forms to make sure

    that they were understood, and both of us used their Syriac

    terms. The old man could mumble over the creed, but did not

    know the meaning. “What then do you go to church for? ”

    “To do the appointed things, and worship the cross. The

    priest shows us God.” But he could not tell why the cross was

    worshipped. Another said he went to worship the Apostle

    Paul, but did not know who he was, or what he did. ” Why

    are you baptized ? ” ” For the religion and for the soul ; to

    make me a Mapillay,” were the answers. ” Why do you attend

    the holy communion ? ” ** Because it is the custom. We are

    told to do it, but do not know the reason why.” ” Is it the

    same as eating your rice } ” ” Oh no, something quite different,

    but I do not know what.” Scarcely any knew who the first

    man was, and such like things. I found that the Syrians were beneath the Roman Catholics of the neighbourhood, both in knowledge and in morals” (Native Life in Travancore, 1883 Book digitized by Google from the library of New York Public Library)

    It is quite evident from Samuel Mateer’s account that the Syrian Christians of the pre-British period in Travancore were not Nambudiri converts but lower castes working as farm labourers of Nambudiri jenmis. Churches were managed by local, uneducated priests having Nestorian belief. There were also wealthy and elite groups of Syrian Christians living in urban areas. They were elevated to that status by the Portuguese by employing them as soldiers, police officers, brokers, planters, traders, accountants, cooks and messengers. They were not Nambudiris but from various sub castes.

    Despite an avalanche of irrefutable evidences that Syrian Christians cannot claim Nambudhiri or Jewish ancestry, why these racists are inventing lies to usurp the identity of others by referring to temple architecture, colour of dress, fake DNA, tying of thali and cleanliness?

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